A while back, I heard someone refer to school administrators and other public sector leaders as “middle managers”, and it really hit home for me.  As I’ve transitioned through different roles in my career, I’ve gotten into the trap of thinking that when I achieve the “next step”, I’ll finally have the influence I want.  In my experience, telling myself that I’ll be satisfied with the level of impact I can make when I reach the “next step” is a recipe for disappointment. In reality, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to fix all the things I want to fix, and I’m slowly coming to terms with that; learning to pick which battles are worth fighting. As I’ve talked with others who have transitioned to different administrative roles, this seems to be a common challenge faced by people in middle management positions.  That’s why I invited Dr. Chris Jones and Chris Dodge to episode 173 of De Facto Leaders to talk about what it's like to be a middle manager in public sector systems like the schools.  Chris Dodge has been a lead learner in elementary school settings for ten years and currently the principal at the Thorndyke Road School is Worcester, MA, Chris works to create collaborative structures and systems that bring stakeholder voice into school level decision making, as well as strategies that promote student success and achievement. His schools utilize these systems to promote a vision of serving the whole child, ensuring that students’ social-emotional and academic needs are being met. Most notably, in 2014, Christopher led the Dexter Park School in Orange, MA to become a MA Department of Education appointed Innovation School, awarded for its inclusionary practice work. Aside from the role as principal, Christopher has served on DESE’s Principal/Teacher Advisory Cabinet, Commissioner Riley’s Return to School Teaching and Learning Working Group during COVID19, as well as on the MSAA (Massachusetts School Administrators Association) Executive Board. He has been published in numerous blogs and publications such as “Rogue Leader” and “STOP Series: 100 No Nonsense Things Teachers and Leaders Should Stop Doing”, and is featured in podcasts such as “Seeing to Lead” and “Becoming Principal”. Passionate about supporting and mentoring leaders and educators, Christopher is also a consultant with Seaside Educational Consultants and an adjunct instructor at Assumption University in Worcester, MA. Dr. Chris Jones has been an educator in Massachusetts for 22 years. His experience in the classroom ranged from 8th – 11th grade working in an urban setting. A portion of this was spent opening a high school division for an expanding charter school. He has just finished his 15th year as a building administrator. Chris is also the Vice President of the Massachusetts State Administrators Association (MSAA). True to his “why” of improving the educational experience for as many people as possible, he is currently the Principal of Whitman-Hanson Regional High School in Whitman, Massachusetts.  He is the author of SEEing to Lead (https://drcsjones.blog/seeing-to-lead-podcast/), a book that provides strategies for how modern leaders can and must support, engage, and empower their teachers to elevate student success. Chris vlogs weekly about continuous improvement and is also the host of the podcast SEEing to Lead as a way to amplify teachers’ voices in an effort to improve education as a whole. His overarching goal is to positively model continuous improvement in all facets of life by being purposeful, acting with integrity, and building character. Chris is passionate about continuous improvement and the idea that success is not a destination, but a process. Chris is a teacher centered principal and his beliefs around the importance of a positive work environment, continuous growth, and a healthy family work-life integration can be seen in the presentations and workshops he has given for the M