"So the whole community has known this guy as the most prolific hunter, and today he is preaching conservation of wildlife, Telling everyone "I loved animals. Animals are the best. They are wonderful ." So it's easier for the community to change their mindset about eating bush meat or about hunting or about destroying the forest wildlife if they're part of the process. You can't do it outside of them. You actively have to make sure they're participating in the entire process, that's where we've seen the best results. That's when we've seen the most progress. And I've also heard of people coming up with very technical step-by-step details of how things ought to go and leaving the people out and leaving indigenous communities out of that same process. And feel like it would be so difficult to sustain that system of doing diverse conservation."