In this episode, Dayamati and I discuss D.T. Suzuki's essay 'Zen and Jōdo, Two Types of Buddhist Experience' from “Selected Works of D.T. Suzuki, Volume II”. We use the essay to explore the relative differences and similarities between Zen and Pure Land Buddhism. Among other things we reflect on the relative value of dualistic and non dualistic language for mapping human religious experience. In addition, we talk about the importance of narratives in the process of self-understanding and how they cannot simply be replaced by ideas. We touch on some key terms employed by Suzuki including what he means by mystical and intellectual.