Marcus and Sue Evans both worked as clinicians in the Tavistock Centre in London for many years. Noticing red flags since the early 2000s, Sue was the first whistle-blower in the Tavistock Centre and Marcus resigned as its governor because the concerns raised by therapists, parents, and managers were systematically dismissed. Marcus and Sue have recently released their book https://firingthemind.com/product/9781912691784/ (Gender Dysphoria: A Therapeutic Model for Working with Children, Adolescents and Young Adults). They join us to discuss the tasks of adolescents, family dynamics, and how important it is to explore questions about gender dysphoria as part of a more holistic approach to clinical care because nobody yet has all the final answers. Links: Gender Dysphoria: A Therapeutic Model for Working with Children, Adolescents and Young Adults Authors: Susan Evans and Marcus Evans https://firingthemind.com/product/9781912691784/ (Firingthemind.com/product/9781912691784/) “Freedom to Think: the need for thorough assessment and treatment of gender dysphoric children” by Marcus Evans https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/freedom-to-think-the-need-for-thorough-assessment-and-treatment-of-gender-dysphoric-children/F4B7F5CAFC0D0BE9FF3C7886BA6E904B (Cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/freedom-to-think-the-need-for-thorough-assessment-and-treatment-of-gender-dysphoric-children/F4B7F5CAFC0D0BE9FF3C7886BA6E904B) “First do no harm: A new model for treating trans-identified children” https://quillette.com/author/susan-evans/ (Quillette.com/author/susan-evans/) Interview with Marcus Evans:  https://quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/ (Quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/) Sue Quoted in the Guardian:  https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/01/families-divided-tavistock-nhs-gender-clinic-judicial-review-goes-ahead (Theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/01/families-divided-tavistock-nhs-gender-clinic-judicial-review-goes-ahead) An overview of the Judicial Review and court decision about puberty blockers https://www.transparencyproject.org.uk/bell-v-tavistock-in-the-high-court-an-explainer/ (Transparencyproject.org.uk/bell-v-tavistock-in-the-high-court-an-explainer/) Extended Notes How did Sue get into gender dysphoria? Being involved in this work for many years now, Sue was concerned that children were being medicalized too quickly. It is clear that there needs to be more research in this area and the subject needs to be understood more before we prescribe children with puberty blockers. How did Marcus get into gender dysphoria? In 2006, Sue and Marcus were raising clinical concerns about the effects of puberty blockers. It was tough. Their opinions were unpopular. Marcus retired in 2018 and became a staff governor. He received a letter from 10 parents that were concerned that their children weren’t psychologically examined properly for their gender dysphoria. They felt the whole process was too rushed. After digging deeper into the issues, Marcus felt he had to resign because he disagreed with how his organization was handling the issue. He was terrified his career was going to end. In any other illness or mental health issue, there is an open discussion on what are the best options out there for the patient, but when it comes to gender-questioning teens, that conversation is quickly shut down. We all still have a lot to learn. We should be able to ask smart questions to find the right answers. Sue knew that management was not going to take their child safeguarding concerns that were being raised by the parents and by the clinicians. Sue tried to gather expert witnesses to help bring mo