Diana Chigas is a professor of the practice of international negotiation and conflict resolution at The Fletcher School and also serves as aSenior International Officer and Associate Provost at Tufts University. Cheyanne Scharbatke-Church is a Professor of Practice in Human Security. Together, Diana and Cheyanne have been working on the topic of social norms of corruption (see references below). The interview covers why system analysis helps to capture the adaptive dynamics of corruption (more on this can also be found in this episode with M. Khan and P. Heywood: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/29-mushtaq-khan-paul-heywood-on-populism-digital-technologies-rcts-part-ii) . The interview shows how understanding the social forces that sustain corrupt practices helps to identify useful entry points for policies. It highlights in particular the importance of understanding social norms of corruption. Importantly, social norms are the shared understandings of which practices are common and acceptable and therefore differ from attitudes and behavior, as Diana and Cheyanne outline (for more on this you can also listen to our interview with C. Bicchieri: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/13-cristina-bicchieri-on-social-norms-of-corruption-antanas-mockus-and-soap-operas). The two further provide an overview of the concrete methodology that can be used to diagnose social norms, like systems analysis, vignettes and eview of previous attempts to fight corruption (for more see the reference list which also contains the paper on salary reforms in Ghana that is mentioned in the interview). References Paper on salary reforms among Police officers in Ghana: Foltz, J. D., & Opoku-Agyemang, K. A. (2015). Do Higher Salaries Lower Petty Corruption? a Policy Experiment on West Africa’S Highways. In IGC International Growth Centre (Vol. 53, Issue 9). https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9781107415324.004 Diana & Cheyanne’s joint work on corruption: Scharbatke-Church, C., & Chigas, D. (2016). Facilitation in the Criminal Justice System: A Systems Analysis of Corruption in the Police and Courts in Northern Uganda. Institute for Human Security Occasional Paper. Medford, MA: The Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. Scharbatke-Church, C., & Chigas, D. (2016). Taking the Blinders Off: Questioning How Development Assistance Is Used to Combat Corruption. Institute for Human Security Occasional Paper. Medford, MA: The Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. Scharbatke-Church, C., & Chigas, D. V. (2019). 11 Using systems thinking to understand and address corruption in the criminal justice system in fragile states. Corruption, Social Sciences and the Law: Exploration across the disciplines, 176. Scharbatke-Church, C., & Chigas, D. (2019). Understanding social norms: A reference guide for policy and practice. https://sites.tufts.edu/ihs/social-norms-reference-guide/ Work on social norms messaging: Cheeseman, N., & Peiffer, C. (2020). The unintended consequences of anti‑corruption messaging in Nigeria: Why pessimists are always disappointed. SOAS ACE working paper 024. London: SOAS University of London https://ace. soas. ac. uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/ACE-WorkingPaper024-NigeriaUnintendedConsequences-200608.pdf . Köbis, N., Troost, M., Brandt, C. and Soraperra, I. (2019). Social norms of corruption in the field: Social nudges on posters can help to reduce bribery. Behavioural Public Policy, 1-28. doi:10.1017/bpp.2019.37 Guide to Anti Corruption from a social norms perspective: Jackson, D., & Köbis, N. (2018). Anti-corruption through a social norms lens. U4 Issue, 2018(7).