This episode was sponsored by -NordPass. Get 50% off a 2-year plan + a free month at https://nordpass.com/TMPP or with code “TMPP” -Schwank Grills. Visit https://schwankgrills.com or use code “JP150” now for $150 OFF an American-made, 1500-degree grill + grill cover. In this episode, Mikhaila hosts French Canadian symbolic thinker, YouTuber, editor of the Orthodox Arts Journal, and icon carver Jonathan Pageau, an explorer of how (underlying) symbolic patterns emerge, develop, and then manifest in religion, art, pop culture, etc. Mikhaila and Jonathan discuss finding God, the Protestant church (and the Reformation), human compassion, ways to go to Heaven (and Hell), the Protestant people (or: Purgatory denial), Christianity for mystics, the Bible, and—not least—the story of Purgatory. If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe and hit the bell button! ———————————— Find Jonathan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/JonathanPageau Twitter https://twitter.com/pageaujonathan Learn more about his carvings http://pageaucarvings.com/index.html https://patreon.com/jonathanpageau and carving classes https://jonathanpageau.thinkific.com/... ———————————— Follow Me On ———————————— All Platforms: https://linktr.ee/mikhailapeterson Facebook: https://facebook.com/mikhailapete​rson Twitter: https://twitter.com/MikhailaAleksis​​ Instagram: https://instagram.com/mikhailapeterson Telegram channel: https://t.me/mikhailapeterson​​ ———————————— Show Notes ———————————— [00:00] Intro [01:30] Pageau’s background [02:33] How he got into symbolism [03:33] Pageau’s pattern, explained [06:56] Why the pattern matters [09:44] Mikhaila finding God [23:05] Mikhaila’s church-hunt [24:31] Prayer & life’s extremes [26:13] "Moderating with prayer and worship is part of it… Giving up success to something above you so it doesn't carry you too high" - Jonathan Pageau [28:19] Sharing beliefs with family [28:39] Mikhaila’s demon-experience [35:22] Bridging the story world and psychology with religion [35:47] "If a literalist [or] uneducated person says ‘don't do that, you'll go to hell,’ they're usually telling the truth" - JP [36:06] "There are things you can do, and there are ways you can be, and there are ways you can engage with others that will tend you toward hell, you could say. Where you will have the worst experiences, and then there are ways to be, ways to engage with others which will bring you up" - JP [37:48] Transforming suffering into God's compassion [42:59] "Who's the person helping people who suffer? It's usually someone who has suffered, and so there is a way that you can see that. Like it really is this image of transforming into blessing, transforming suffering into something else, which is actually manifesting God's compassion in the world through us" - JP [43:56] Why do some find God so easily? [47:49] Differences in Christian Religions [51:21] Pageau's book recommendations [54:53] "The Protestant Church is really a fruit of the modern world… whereas the catholic and orthodox church are more like a stream coming down from millennia" - JP [56:54] Pageau’s church-advice for Mikhaila [01:00:23] Different protestant churches [01:01:24] The Reformation & Protestantism [01:07:04] Pageau’s misgivings re: the Reformation [01:08:44] Purgatory: Origins [01:09:26] "The reformers say if it's not in the bible, it's not true, and it's like OK, but that wasn't the standard before" - JP [01:10:19] "The Bible is a good means to prevent chaos. But the reality is more linked to the actual body of people and their connection to Christ through generations, who transmit not just books but a way to be and a way to pray and of seeing and engaging with God" - JP [01:11:39] A mystical understanding of Christianity [01:14:00] How do people parse reality from tradition? [01:15:59] The fear of joini