The Story Rules Podcast Ravishankar

"And he gave a very (interesting) thought experiment. He said, go to your Facebook, remove all your school friends, remove all your relatives, remove all your college friends, work friends. And, if you're able to get 10 people after removing all of this, then probably you're lucky. Okay. I think that had a very profound impact to say that, you know… It was true, right? You know, because all the people that I knew, we're all from the same college, same school, same town, blah, blah, right? You know, you would never have like a Swiggy delivery executive as a part of your Facebook friend list, right? You would never have someone who is a farmer as a part of your WhatsApp contact list, right? Which means that, you know, our worldviews are generally also limited, right? So research allows you to break away from that and meet other people and gives you an opportunity to learn about their stories."

Welcome to the Story Rules podcast with me, Ravishankar Iyer, where we learn from some of the best storytellers in the world, find their story, and unearth the secrets of their craft.

Today we speak with Dharmesh Ba, a behavioural researcher who writes the popular India Notes newsletter and is the founder of 1990 Research Labs.

I came across Dharmesh through leading India-based VC Sajith Pai – who dubbed him as ‘Indus Valley's chief anthropologist’ (though Dharmesh prefers the term ‘ethnographer’).

In simpler terms, Dharmesh is an expert on the art and craft of understanding user behavior and motivations, through detailed personal interviews - so that we can design better products and services.

Why is this important? I remember an interview from Oct-2019 of Kalyan Krishnamurthy, the CEO of Flipkart, where he stated the importance of this task. His key point: The e-commerce puzzle had been solved for the top-tier users in the country – the top 8 cities. But for the vast middle and bottom tiers, product managers would need to completely reimagine every aspect of the product from the ground up. They can only do that by a comprehensive understanding of user behaviour in their context and environment.

Dharmesh and his team are among the ones at the forefront of this initiative – to understand user behaviour. Their clients include leading corporates and non-profits which are building products and services for these hundreds of millions of aspiring Indians… and Dharmesh and team are doing the critical and under-appreciated task of deeply understanding their world.

They do this through in-depth, well-researched and structured conversations with the users. There’s a lot of science and craft that Dharmesh uses to ensure that the interviewee trusts him and is willing to share the true reasons for their choices. We will learn about them in this podcast conversation.

And while we will learn about interviewing techniques, analysis approaches, and presentation tips, the overarching message I could glean after speaking with Dharmesh was – be curious, empathetic, and respectful.

It’s a must-listen conversation for anyone keen on conducting detailed user interviews, analysing the responses, and coming up with clear recommendations – for product design, research, employee well-being – multiple use cases.

Let’s dive in.

Show Notes:
Dharmesh on LinkedIn and Twitter
Link Tree with most popular links and work by Dharmesh
India Notes Newsletter

This is a different type of podcast episode: one where I'm the one being interviewed!

“So, as a storyteller, you have three things in your hand to make an appeal right, you've got the data or the logic. You've got the emotional appeal to your audience. Most importantly, you've got your Ethos, your reputation, your credibility.  And if you make a series of wrong recommendations based on quick (assessments, thinking), 'I'm very, very sharp and I have got this great intuition', it may go on well for some time, but eventually, the probability will catch up with you and when that happens, then you will realize that, oh, (and) the audience will also realize that ‘We can't rely on your word anymore. We'd like to see more evidence, please'”
That was me on my own podcast (yup, it's weird to be quoting yourself).

As I said, this is a different kind of podcast episode. In this one, I’m the one being interviewed, and the interviewer is Harish Bhamidipati, a good friend, and the co-founder of ​Choose to Thinq​ and ​Align by Design​. (Incidentally, his firms do some unique, highly valuable work for startups and big companies – and you should check it out through the links).

In the conversation, Harish spoke with me about my ​recently published long-form essay​ on the crucial role of Causality in storytelling.

The conversation was the brainchild of Harish (and his wife Sirisha) who felt that the 17,000-word essay may be a bit daunting for folks who don't get time to read... and they may appreciate an audio conversation about it.

But instead of a plain reading of the essay (which would anyway be difficult given the visual elements embedded in it), we decided to have a conversation about the essay.

We talk about two broad topics:

1. A deeper dive into some of the key messages of the essay and the implications for different stakeholders.

2. My process for writing this long-form piece: The initial idea to write it, the research process, structuring the piece, actually writing it, adding visual elements, and finally editing the write-up.

So - in case you haven’t had time to go through the essay and would like a quick overview - or would like to know more about my reading, reflection and writing process, go ahead and listen to this deep-dive on: ‘​Causality: The Elusive C at the Heart of Story​’.

Show notes:
-  Essay link 
-  Ravi’s YouTube video on how to up your storytelling game post ChatGPT and Microsoft Copilot
- Harish’s work – Align by Design (a transformative leader alignment program that  enables organisations achieve unparalleled growth) and Choose to Thinq (enables companies and individuals to continuously build future relevance)

“When I do the corporate workshops, most people start from this point of view. They are about 35 to 50. They are probably in the peak of their career-related progress, they are doing well, they can easily get their next job. It's not a big deal. They are very well connected offline or online. They’ve networked well, they attend industry events; perfect. Everything is going swimmingly well. My only concern or the only point that I start with is, think of personal branding as insurance. When would you take life insurance or car insurance? When things are going well; when you have money, you will take insurance.”

Welcome to the Story Rules podcast - today we speak with Karthik Srinivasan, a leading communication and personal branding expert. 

In this conversation, we start with the habit stack that makes Karthik so productive in sharing his work online. We discuss his reading habits, content curation, simple note-taking process, reflection habits, and finally how he articulates his thoughts. The surprising takeaway – Karthik relies on the simplest of tools to ship his work. For those who are stuck figuring out the ‘best note-taking tool’, the 'number one content-tagging system', or the 'ideal productivity app'... stop searching. It doesn’t matter. Go with any tool. Just get started.

In fact, if you are a mid-career leader who is not actively sharing specialised content on social media, a blog, or a newsletter, this episode will hopefully serve as inspiration to get started on your personal branding journey. 

Personal branding is not just about promoting oneself. It's about being genuine and sharing your unique knowledge and perspective with others who can benefit from it. And as Karthik says, you will be the biggest beneficiary of this effort. I loved the frame that Karthik gives of looking at personal branding as career insurance.

During the conversation, Karthik and I also geek out on the evolution of advertising as a means of storytelling - especially how adverts have transitioned from being forced on viewers to being on-demand.

We then discuss some common tools used in advertising, such as:
- The element of surprise to hold the audience's attention, 
- Using emotions to form connections with the audience, 
- The use of framing, 
- Analogies and 
- The need to start from where the audience is. 

Finally, Karthik shares his nuanced thoughts on the emerging use of AI in advertising and marketing, using some relevant examples. 

It’s a must-listen conversation for anyone keen on personal branding and modern advertising trends.

Let’s dive in.
Show Notes:
Karthik's website and profile on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram

Karthik's talk on mastering the 9-second attention span

Ads discussed in the episode:
- Ad of Asian paints
- Sudha Murthy thing
PhonePe ad campaign featuring Alia Bhatt, Aamir Khan
- Semiosis
- Brooke Bond ad
- Spotify ad
- Birla Pipes ad
- Thai ad
- Rahul Dev ad
- Jaguar light fittings ad
- Cadbury 

“Some amount of anchoring and mooring toward identity is important. But that’s the word – your identity should be a mooring: it tells you who you are and from there you can depart to wherever you want. It tells you where you started and which direction you want to go in. But if instead of being a mooring, it becomes a straitjacket – you are held together and your mooring is also a radius beyond which you cannot move, then it becomes naturally constraining.” 

That is Nitin Pai, founder of the Takshashila Institution (A think-tank and school of Public Policy based in Bangalore). Nitin is a public policy intellectual and has been my go-to thinker on the topics of geopolitics, defence economics and public policy choices.

Nitin once said - “The stories we tell ourselves shape the reality we live in” – and it is this avatar of his as a teacher – and student - of narratives that I wanted to know more about on this podcast.

In this episode, we dive into several topics around narratives and storytelling:
Nitin talks about how narratives are at the most fundamental level about identities and how that means - we can become prisoners of our own narratives. He shares the evocative analogy of how narratives can serve as a mooring or an anchor for who we are, but can sometimes also become a straitjacket, severely constraining the space that we as societies create for ourselvesOn public discourse, I liked Nitin’s frame of the four levels of stories that societies (and organisations) can grapple with.  Level one being the story of ‘Who we are’, our identity; Level 2 deals with ‘What are the key problems’ that we want to focus on, Level 3 being the ‘What are the right Solutions for these problems’ and Level 4 that dealing with ‘Where do we want to go’, our vision. Unfortunately, a lot of societies often get stuck at Level 1, making very little progress on the higher levels.In sharing these stories, there are two broad types of narratives that Nitin says we can use – narratives of hope and narratives of fear. While narratives of fear can get short term electoral gains, over time, people become tired of being fearful… and look forward to more optimistic narratives.Nitin also shares why the medium of narrative dissemination also matters – specifically, how Nitin himself started with blogging, then got into Twitter in the early 2010s, how he got disillusioned with it and what alternatives he’s exploring now.
We also geek out about the meaning and utility of frames and frameworks in storytelling.
Finally, Nitin shares why everyone should read philosophy and fiction.
It’s an eye-opening conversation.
Let’s dive in.

Show Notes:
Nitin Pai's website
Nitin on Twitter, Mastodon, LinkedIn
Takshashila Institution website and Nitin's interview on the organisation
Nitin's book, The Nitopadesa
His article on the Four Levels of Public Discourse

“If the process and the methodology for collecting the data isn’t clearly explained, it becomes that much easier to bat that data away. I find that the best estimates we have on consumption expenditure which show that in 2017-18, if you spent more than 8,500 Rupees a month as an individual it puts you in the top 5% of urban India. That’s something that people often push back against, find unbelievable, or want to say that “There are so many people I know who are spending this, that; you can’t tell me I’m in the top 1% of the country”, (I think that it) comes from us not being able to properly explain how these numbers were calculated and what goes behind it. Explaining to people “Is your objection that this is being missed? Let me show you how it is actually captured in the data,” “There’s all this black money – let me tell you how consumption doesn’t mean that black money isn’t captured.” I completely believe that there’s a failure of communication rather than a refusal to accept reality on people’s parts.”

That is Rukmini S, eminent data journalist and author of ‘Whole Numbers and Half Truths’ a seminal book that looks at India through the lens of data.

Quick – answer whether these questions are True or False:
1. Delhi has the highest rate of crimes against women in India
2. Most of India’s migration is rural to urban
3. UP is safer for women than many big states as per an NCRB report
4. India has a large middle class
5. You are a part of that middle class

If you answered ‘True’ for any of the questions above, you need to read Rukmini’s book.

I teach how to craft narratives with data and one of the things I used to take for granted was the ‘data’ part. Earlier on the podcast, when I'd interviewed Brent Dykes (author of ‘Effective Data Storytelling’), we discussed the importance of ensuring that the data part of the equation is tied up and not taken for granted.

And if you aren’t rigorous about getting the right data, you end up with narratives that may be divorced from the truth. Just like those True/False statements above.

But if those statements are not true, then what is the truth?

As per Rukmini’s book, the answer is, um, complicated. In a series of ten illuminating chapters, she covers a wide range of topics about India – from crime to education to income, to eating habits to how we vote and how we fall ill – and deftly unveils a truer picture of India.

In this conversation, Rukmini shares her approach to researching and writing the chapters. She shares her productivity approach of getting writing done during the pandemic despite being a parent to two young kids! She gives her nuanced take on India’s unique data architecture and why it’s in all our interests to safeguard and nurture it. Finally, she also shares the need for better communication and storytelling of data findings, especially if they seem to contradict the audience’s perception based on lived reality.

Let’s dive in.

Show Notes:
Rukmini S on  Twitter, Instagram, Medium
Her book - 'Whole Numbers and Half Truths'
Her articles in The Hindu

“Oftentimes people try to demonstrate how hard they have worked, so they try and show activity. You are expected to do that activity! If you didn’t do the hard work, don’t keep telling me “I met so many people” and so on. That’s at a very Senior level. Which is why, when you’re talking to people at a very senior level in Consulting like CEOs and others, their time is very precious. They don't want to know all the activity you have done or if your numbers are right, because they have to be right; because you can’t make stupid mistakes. You will be fired if you make those errors. All of that is assumed. Tell me what YOU really think. Which is why even when it comes to investing, the great founders have great stories.”




Today we speak with Toshan Tamhane, currently Chief Strategy Officer at UPL and ex-Senior Partner at Mckinsey and Co.


In storytelling, clarity of communication is a key goal. And one firm which has exemplified that in business communication is Mckinsey. After all, this is the firm that gave birth to the Pyramid Principle (through Barbara Minto), which is something I teach regularly as a part of my courses. 


Now, I was always keen to speak to a senior leader from Mckinsey about how they view the art and craft of storytelling – and was I lucky to have the opportunity to interview Toshan Tamhane.


Toshan spent 18+ years at Mckinsey across 55+ countries advising leading companies and individuals. Currently, apart from his role as CSO at UPL Ltd, he is also an active angel investor and avid adventure enthusiast.


Across these years, Toshan has had a ringside view of several high-stakes communication events with senior stakeholders. Earlier it would have been as a presenter and now, increasingly as a reviewer. I thought it would be great to tap into his vast experience and get his insights on the best practices for storytelling at work.


In the conversation, we go through a wide range of topics - Toshan’s reflections from his IIM-Ahmedabad years, the lessons from Mckinsey, how he would solve business review meetings, his use of relatable analogies and his insane curiosity for deep conversations.


I should reveal here that Toshan happens to be a batchmate from my graduation college – the Podar College of Commerce and Economics in Mumbai.


He was always a prodigious talent since early days – the rest of us at college would be in awe of his drive and clarity. It was great reconnecting with him after almost 2 decades…  and I learnt a lot from this conversation. I’m sure you will too.


Lets dive in.

Links:
Connect with Toshan Tamhane on LinkedIn and Twitter