In this episode, I speak with Bill Miller about his road to developing Motivational Interviewing. Bill explained that he started off heading into pastoral ministry but instead chose to be trained as a clinical psychologist. His behavioral PhD program required a two-semester course on how to work with clients before engaging in behavior therapy, and that's where he was introduced to Carl Rogers and a person-centered approach, which significantly influenced his career. He mentioned watching Gerald Patterson doing behavior therapy with families and seeing how he was with clients: warm, engaging, empathic, and funny, which was not covered in published descriptions of the method. On a sabbatical leave in Norway, Bill was asked to demonstrate his own therapeutic approach through role plays in which the clinicians would stop him and ask good questions: "What are you thinking just now? "Why did you ask that particular question?" "How did you decide what tor reflect from all that the client said?" These interactions helped him reflect on what he was doing and why he was doing it, and he wrote down a description that became the first description of motivational interviewing. Seven years later, on sabbatical leave in Australia, he found himself officed next to Stephan Rollnick who would become his career-long co-author. Rollnick had already been teaching motivational interviewing based on Bill's first article and they decided to write together the first book about motivational interviewing that was published in 1991. When they began teaching the method they noticed that some trainees seemed to be using MI techniques “on” rather than “with” clients. What had they left out? They began writing and teaching about the underlying spirit or attitude with which MI is to be practiced. Therapists also shared with them that this way of practicing seems to prevent burnout. In a later book with Theresa Moyers, Bill discussed eight clinical skills that characterize more effective therapists, which are: accurate empathy, genuineness, positive regard, acceptance, hope, evocation, giving advice, and having shared goals or direction. Bill and I explored the term “resistance” and how it is something that happens between people yet is often attributed to client pathology. In yet another book he argued that ambivalence is natural human nature and even a virtue, as it means the person is weighing the options. He and Rollnick reformulated "resistance" as sustain talk (a natural part of ambivalence) and/or discord in the therapeutic relationship. We discussed how in motivational interviewing the therapist is a guide rather than an expert-director. Lastly, he touched on his work on quantum change, which is transformational change that that can occur within a matter of moments or hours and tends to be both permanent and benevolent. Dr. William R. (Bill) Miller, Emeritus Distinguished Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico. He is the author of 67 books including four editions of Motivational Interviewing, Effective Psychotherapists: Clinical Skills That Improve Client Outcomes, Listening Well: The Art of Empathic Understanding , and On Second Thought: How Ambivalence Shapes Your Life. He has been teaching the skill of accurate empathy for over 50 years.