Uncertain Katherine Spearing

We’re talking about how one of the characteristics of a cult is that they often present as a really good thing. A lot of times, they are doing really good things on the surface. If this weren’t the case, people wouldn’t be joining them.
 Additionally, not every cult starts as a cult. Sometimes it starts as on organization with really good intentions to help people. We’ll discuss all of that, in this episode.
https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_edmondson_how_to_spot_a_cult
Sarah Edmondson is a Canadian actress who has starred in the CBS series Salvation and more than twelve films for the Hallmark Channel and Lifetime. She is also a well-established voice-over artist for popular series such as Transformers: Cybertron and My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. In 2005, when NXIVM, a personal and professional development company, promised to provide the tools and insight Sarah needed to reach her potential, she was intrigued. Over her twelve-year tenure, she went from student to coach and eventually operated her own NXIVM center in Vancouver. Questions kept coming up about the organization’s rules and practices, which came to a head in 2017 when she accepted an invitation from her best friend to join DOS, a “secret sisterhood” within NXIVM.
In 2019, Sarah published Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult that Bound My Life, with Kristine Gasbarre. In this tell-all memoir, she shares her story from the moment she takes her first seminar to her harrowing fight to get out. Her full story as a whistleblower is featured in the CBC podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM (downloaded over 25 million times) and The Vow, the critically acclaimed HBO documentary series on NXIVM. Now with the launch of “A Little Bit Culty,” Sarah and her co-host/husband Anthony “Nippy” Ames are keeping the conversation going by discussing the healing process with the help of experts and fellow survivors.
Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.com
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings:
Katherine: Well, hello, Sarah,
Sarah: how are you? I'm great. How are you
Katherine: doing? Okay. Do you know? Okay. It has been gloomy and St. Louis and today the first sign of sunshine and I like went outside to like be in the sun, but it was 30 degrees. And so I didn't stay there very long, but. It's beautiful today. Beautiful to see the sun.
How are, how's the weather in your area?
Sarah: I'm in Atlanta. We're in our very brief winter and it's, it's, it's just a couple of weeks, I think. And it really fluctuates on a day to day basis and I have no idea what's in store and I'm just getting used to that as a concept. Yeah.
Katherine: I just kind of ups and downs.
Yeah. Yes. I have relatives in the Atlanta area and I hear about the bipolar weather. Of yeah, very [00:02:00] similar to St. Louis fun times. Well, thank you so much for being here and your openness to telling your story here. Really excited to hear from you just about The impact of your experience in NXIVM and then your recovery process.
You also have your podcast, a little bit culty that I highly recommend to everyone. It's just entertaining. It's good stuff and you learn a lot, but then it's also super entertaining. And so I hope folks will listen to that as well, but you get to interact with a lot of cult survivors through that. And so I w I'm very interested to hear.
Just patterns and things that you have seen as you have been doing your podcast and working with folks in this, this area. But just to just start us, start us off for folks who may not know who you are or have not seen the vow o

One of our Most Loved episodes from Season Three, exploring common misguided perspectives of anger and how befriending our anger can help us heal.
Dr. Laura Anderson is the cofounder of the Religious Trauma Institute, and founder of Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery she’s a licensed therapist, and professor of psychology. Instagram//Facebook: @drlauraeanderson
Support Groups https://www.tearsofeden.org/support-groups
Podcast Collaboration Form https://www.tearsofeden.org/form
Listen to Trauma and Pop Culture: https://www.katherinespearing.com/trauma-and-pop-culture
Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.com
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Get more info on Pop Culture and Trauma podcast on Instagram @katherinespearing

This episode is with Ashley Love Richards and Fallon Morey, cohosts of TSFU the Podcast
Katherine and Fallon play a game with Ashley asking her Christian Clichés to see if she knows what they mean. We also discuss the perspectives Catholics and protestants have of one another, the origin of Alcoholics Anonymous (spoiler, it’s Christian), and whether or not AA is a cult. This conversation is comical and fun—and borderline irreverent.
Shoot Christians Say YouTube Video is the video we watch in this episode! 
Katherine was interviewed in The New F Word Episode with TSFU. 
Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.com
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings
Katherine: [00:00:00] I actually, hi, Fallon. Hi. These are my two friends that I just met through. That's a f****d up podcast, and we had a blast hanging out and, and, and interview doing an interview. I had a blast hanging out with them and doing an interview with them.
And so we decided to do this episode. Fallon grew up similar to me in
evangelicalism and Ashley did not. So we're going to play a game called Stuff Christians Say, where Fallon and I are going to introduce Christian sayings to Ashley and ask her what she thinks they mean. And this is a like Not a pass fail like no, like there's, there are no stakes here other than testing your Christian, your Christian knowledge before I, I'm going to play a video, a little video to, to get us warmed up, but before I do that.
Ashley and Fallon. I would love to hear what brings you here today. Ashley, go
Ashley: first. What's up, Kathryn? [00:01:00] Hey! Super excited to be here. So yeah, I have a podcast called that's so fucked up and it's about Colts and murder and other generally fucked up stuff.
Although I would say I primarily focus on Colts and coercive groups and I can high control groups. Obviously that's more where your podcast and your stories fit into. I saw Jesus camp 17 years ago when it came out in 2006. I saw a bunch of evangelical children being brainwashed at a camp to Take abortion out of the you know, take abortion rights away because a third of their f*****g friends could have been there that night and they weren't.
And then I saw it 17 years later, like right after our abortion rights got taken away. And I was like, hold on, this is a long game. And then I saw shiny, happy [00:02:00] people and I've been obsessed with high control, coercive Christianity ever since. So I'm very excited to have met you through me and Fallon doing a segment called the new f word.
The f word was fundamentalism fundamentalism and Actually, it's really funny or it's actually really fun the episode that Catherine was on was called the new f word the C and F and E words Which sound like they're going to be really bad, but it was Christianity, nationalism, fundamentalism, and evangelicalism.
So, you know, really, I had a lot of fun. I thought that was fun.
Katherine: That was one of my funnest, my funnest or most fun. I don't know. Funnest, funnest episodes that I've ever, ever interviewed on. I had a great time with y'all.
Ashley: I wanted to make sure that we knew what the f**k we were talking about before we started [00:03:00] talking about it, because as you said, I have, I am not religious, I did not grow up with any religion, I have a Patreon segment where I learn about the Bible, it's called Ash Learns the Bible, because I knew about that one story, I think Solomon, where they try to cut the baby in half, and I was like, That is fucked up.
Is there other shit like that? Because I want to hear about it. So, basically, I guess

Shannon Payton (https://shannypantsshow.com/), known as Shanny Pants by many, is a content creator and podcaster living in Rocklin, California. Although Shannon has a successful career as a Realtor, she has equally enjoyed her hobby of sharing her humor through Instagram with friends and family. In 2020 her video about making school lunches went viral, it opened a whole new world for her. She now has many viral videos and hundreds of thousands of social media followers.
Her podcast, The ShannyPants Show is currently in its second season. In her interview style podcast, Shannon shares her struggles of growing up in a cult, battles through years of infertility that ended in a hysterectomy and finally her journey to parenthood through foster care and adoption.
She enjoys sharing the struggles of life in a humorous way as part of her self-prescribed therapy and through this, has connected with her fans. Her podcast topics include a wide range of subjects which in one way or another relate to something she has been through.
Shannon has been a guest on The Kelly Clarkson show and has appeared on local TV show GoodDay Sacramento multiple times. Shannon is currently writing a memoir and is looking forward to giving her followers a deeper look into her life. When Shannon is asked where she gets all of her ideas for her humorous videos she sarcastically states, “I’m married and have kids, that’s all the inspiration I need for some crazy content”. IG: @therealshannypants @shannypantsshowpodcast
Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.com
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings
 [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Do you ever get to a point where everything is just too much and you just need to take a break? That is kind of how I've been feeling the past few weeks.
Around trauma recovery. And abuse dynamics and sometimes it just gets to be a lot and I just need to take a break. So I had to do that over the weekend a little bit. And this episode, I wanted to put this episode out because, uh, the guest today, Shani Payton is just a super funny human being and is comedian her content on social media is.
So funny and keeps me laughing all day long and I thought that this episode was going to be like this really funny episode because we recorded it. I think back in like December and I listened to it and I was like, Oh, it's not as funny as I thought it was going to be, but there is some laughter. Fear not.
 [00:01:00] Shani Payton is a comedian and has hundreds of thousands of followers. So, so, so, so funny, but she has a darker origin story. She grew up in a church cult, and she has been on her own journey of recovery and healing, and humor plays a role in our healing process, and we do get to that at the end, but we also just talked about the dynamics of control and the impact that it has on us, it's just a really great conversation, and I really like Shani a lot.
I'm going to link to her website in the show notes so you can follow her on all the things. She also hosts the Shani Pants show, which is a podcast. I was recently on the Shani Pants show, I will link to that episode of my conversation with Shani Payton, also in the show notes.
Thanks so much for being here, and if you're having one of those weeks where you just need to take a break, then you know what? [00:02:00] You should. Take a break. Go for a little walk. Have a sip of water. And if you can take a break. for a couple days, sure, just do it. If you can. I highly recommend it. It's good to do that.
All of the abuse and trauma it'll still be here when you g

Marie Griffith, PhD, John C. Danforth Distinguished Professor in the Humanities at Washington University in St. Louis. She served for 12 years (2011-2023) as the director of the John C. Danforth Center on Religion and Politics and the editor of the Center’s journal, Religion & Politics. Her research focuses on American Christianity, including the changing profile of American evangelicals and ongoing conflicts over gender, sexuality, and marriage. Author of several books, including Moral Combat: How Sex Divided America and Fractured American Politics, the book discussed in this episode.

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.com
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings
[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Hello. How are you? How are you hanging in there? I hope you're doing okay. I'm doing semi okay. It's been a lot inundation with this very real, very damaging type of abuse. One thing that you may or may not know is folks who have experienced spiritual abuse and folks who have experienced sexual abuse.
They're very similar to each other. Spiritual abuse and sexual abuse are very, very similar. The impact is very, very similar because it is so, so vulnerable. You are so vulnerable when this happens and it violates our intimacy and it violates our very souls in a way that maybe other abuse doesn't. So if you are traumatized.
By the abuse that you experienced in a church [00:01:00] or a high control environment or religious environments in your family. There's a reason for that. It makes a lot of sense. It's very, very serious trauma. So one of the things that we discussed in this episode is how the folks who. experience sexual abuse when they go to the religious institution where they experience that abuse and say, Hey, help me, this happened, this was awful, please help me.
When they get dismissed or falsely accused or sidelined or silenced, that that is sometimes worse than the sexual abuse that they experienced in that institution. This episode is with Marie Griffith. She is the author of Moral Combat, How Sex Divided America and Fractured American Politics. It's an intense book.
A lot of research went into this book. She's also a scholar [00:02:00] and a professor of religion at Washington University. And one of the things we will also discuss in this episode is how she literally taught a class on abuse in the church in a secular university. What? Crazy, crazy, crazy. Great conversation, lots of mind blowing moments about the connection between sex and sexual abuse and the rampant abuse that is happening in the evangelical church right now.
Enjoy, or don't enjoy, but take it in for sure. And as always, take care of yourself, get some rest, give yourself some time after this episode to go for a walk, take a sip of water, breathe. You're okay, wherever you are, you are okay, take a deep breath, you are safe, you are here, you are now, you are present, you're going to be okay.[00:03:00]
Here is my interview with Marie Griffith.
Katherine: Hi, Catherine. Oh, how are you? How are you? And I have your big book here. This was a lot of work. She took this.
Marie: And that was like I don't even want to tell you how many years. I mean, it was really sort of 15 years. I did other things as I was doing that,
Katherine: but yeah. Yeah, just like the amount of research that went into just like one chapter I was like, this was a very large endeavor. But how are you this morning? How are you doing? How is your writing? Is it like a writing sabbatical? Is that kind of what this season is called?
Marie: Yeah, I'm on, I'm on re

Brian Lee, from Through Cohort and Broken to Beloved Summit interviews Tears of Eden’s Founder Katherine Spearing about the Church’s harmful teachings on marriage that can result in very real trauma—for single and married people.
Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.com
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Transcript (Unedited for Typos and Misspellings)
Brian: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome to our session. I'm here with Katherine Spearing. Katherine is the founder of Tears of Eden, a non profit supporting survivors of spiritual abuse, and the host of Tears affiliate podcast Uncertain. She also hosts the podcast Trauma and Pop Culture, and is a certified trauma recovery coach, working primarily with clients who have survived cults, High control environments, spiritual abuse, and sexual abuse.
She also provides specialized trauma informed career coaching, as folks with trauma often need extra support for interviewing and networking, which I can attest to. Catherine is the author of a historical romantic comedy, which we talked about last year, Hartford's, a novel that challenges gender roles in a patriarchal society that will appeal to fans of Jane Austen.
And she's been a guest on a number of podcasts. including indoctrination, and that's so effed up. She's the author of several non fiction articles and writes regularly at katherinespearing. com and tearsofeden. org. Welcome back, welcome back. [00:01:00] Very excited,
Katherine: very excited. Me too.
Brian: So we're here to talk today about being single within the context of faith communities, which is a big I don't know anywhere else that I really hear about this talked about, so I'm excited to dive into it.
What is it like for a single person within these communities?
Katherine: Right, yeah, and I think on the subject of it not being talked about very much, I definitely looked, obviously, that's who I am. So I have looked for books on this particular topic, and they all tend to have this, like, this like, consolation prize flair to it.
Like You're a single, but you didn't want this. So here's some tips for being happy despite the situation that you find yourself in as if it's like. So so sad. And so haven't haven't read a lot where I was just like, Oh, like I'm empowered. I'm inspired. I'm [00:02:00] encouraged very, very rarely. And then also just within this topic that I'm very, I'm very passionate about just living a thriving life wherever you are and being very present wherever you are, no matter.
Single or not, and I think 1 of the things that I have discovered through just the work that I do with religious trauma and spiritual abuse survivors is that to say, hey, like, it's, you know, really important to live a thriving life here. Here are tools to live a thriving life to then. Ignore the systemic issues that then make it difficult to have a thriving life.
It's kind of, it's just half of the story. And so there's a lot of. Messaging towards singles of just like be content and be happy within faith communities without acknowledging the things that then make it difficult to be happy. And one example is [00:03:00] I learned very, very young that it was okay for me to be single, but it was okay for me to be single only.
If I was unhappy about being single and only I was actively seeking to change that status and at the same time be happy being single and so rejoice in this lot that God has given you, but then also actively seek to change it and actively. Date and actively ask for prayer for your future husband. So, it's very, very stark cognitive dissonance happening within these communities.
I also, my, my vocation