In a gripping and revealing conversation, forensic psychologist Dr. Katherine Ramsland, known for her deep-dive exploration into the mind of the notorious serial killer Dennis Rader (the BTK Killer), spoke with Tony Brueski on the podcast "Hidden Killers". Ramsland, the author of Rader's autobiography, offered an unrivaled glimpse into the process of understanding extreme offenders, her experiences with Rader, and the effect of this journey on criminology and forensic psychology.   Ramsland shared, "I've been teaching a course on extreme offenders for several decades... I had just finished a book where I looked at a dozen cases of mental health experts who had spent a lot of time with either a mass or serial killer, trying to learn as much detail about their developmental process as possible." The opportunity to work on Rader's biography, she mentioned, was one that she couldn't turn down, even though it meant navigating complex situations and trust-building exercises.   A significant part of the process was to gain the trust of both Rader and the victims' families. Ramsland explained, "I had to write a proposal that everybody agreed with, and it essentially, it was to be able to use whatever [Rader] tells me to benefit law enforcement, criminology and forensic psychology." It was a sensitive negotiation that demanded empathy, understanding, and clinical detachment. The project significantly impacted Ramsland's career and research in criminology. Her time with Rader involved prison visits, phone conversations, detailed letters, and a study of his drawings and poetry, among other things. "It taught me things, taught him things. I think it did make a contribution... some people, I use it as a textbook in my classes," Ramsland said, affirming the value of the project to her field.   Ramsland emphasized that the process of gaining trust was intricate and multifaceted. She demonstrated her clinical interest with the victims' families and stated her intent to avoid any glorification or excessive graphic details. Ramsland recounted, "I think when I told them my intent... and agreed to the terms, um, and that this was really for me, a professional research project. And that's what I wanted to use it for. They were on board."   On the other hand, building a relationship with Rader involved satisfying his fascination for puzzles and codes. Ramsland shared, "The first thing he wanted me to do was solve some codes... because he wanted to see if I'd play the game... I did because it was interesting... And then in the end, um, I ended up writing the code we used for the book." Her willingness to engage in Rader's world allowed her to gain his trust and foster an understanding that eventually led to the book's creation.   Ramsland's intensive exploration into the mind of one of the world's most infamous serial killers paints an illustrative picture of the complexities involved in understanding such individuals. This work has contributed significantly to the field of forensic psychology and brought to light the mechanisms of how the minds of extreme offenders work. Her pursuit reflects a compelling blend of professional rigor, human empathy, and academic curiosity, underlining the importance of such investigations for broader societal understanding and law enforcement applications. Want to listen to ALL of our podcasts AD-FREE? Subscribe through APPLE PODCASTS, and try it for three days free: https://tinyurl.com/ycw626tj Follow Our Other Cases: https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com The latest on Catching the Long Island Serial Killer, Chad & Lori Daybell, The Murder of Ana Walshe, Alex Murdaugh, Bryan Kohberger, Lucy Letby, Kouri Richins, Justice for Harmony Montgomery, The Murder of Stephen Smith, The Murder of Madeline Kingsbury, and much more! Listen at https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com