Here at ChinaTalk, we break the ice on all things international relations, and today we are diving into a topic that is snow joke — icebreakers!  We interviewed William Henagan and Robert Obayda, both directors of the NSC. We discuss: How Canada, Finland, and the United States are leveling up their cooperation in the Arctic through the Icebreaker Collaboration Effort (ICE Pact);  The mechanics of industrial policy in the US government; Why cranes matter for national security, and the benefits of using carrots vs sticks; What icebreakers are for, and how Finland is punching above its weight in the NATO alliance. Co-hosting today is former ChinaTalk intern Alexander Boyd, who is currently at the China Digital Times.  Outtro music: Arctic Monkeys — A Certain Romance (link) and Mardy Bum (link) Pictured: the Russian icebreaker Yamal. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices