In this episode Sophie talks to Professor Anne Douglas, who completed her practice-based PhD in 1992 from Newcastle University. Anne reflects on the practical and philosophical backdrop to how her sculptural work as public art developed into a PhD in the late 1980s. Anne introduces some of the precedents to practice-based PhDs in music and visual arts from the 1970s and 1980s and her 22 year career at Gray's School of Art in Aberdeen. Anne shares how she developed a focused research programme on the relationship between artists and public life at Grays from where she has supervised many artists to develop their PhDs, including Suzanne Lacy and Newton Harrison. Sophie and Anne conclude by discussing the capacity of universities to support practice-research and the need for long-term partnerships beyond the academy.  Links:  Creating Living Knowledge Report by Keri Facer & Bryony Enright  Research through practice: positioning the practitioner as researcher Anne Douglas Karen Scopa & Carole Gray On the Edge Research: Developing the role of the artist in society