Secure messaging protocols like Signal have succeeded at making end-to-end encryption the norm in messaging more generally. Whether you’re using WhatsApp, Wire, Facebook Messenger’s Secret Chat feature, or Signal itself, you’re benefiting from end-to-end encryption across all of your messages and calls, and it’s so transparent that most users aren’t even aware of it! One area in which current secure messaging protocols have stalled, however, is the ability to scale secure conversations to groups of dozens, hundreds and even thousands of people. But the IETF’s Messaging Layer Security, or MLS, effort aims to make that happen. Bringing together a collaboration between Wire, Mozilla, Cisco, Facebook, as well as academia, MLS wants to become the TLS of secure messaging, and make it possible to hold secure conversations scaling to thousands of participants. But what are the real-world implementation risks involved? Are conversations even worth securing when you’ve got hundreds of potential leakers? Links and papers discussed in the show: MLS Website Music composed by Toby Fox and performed by Sean Schafianski. Special Guest: Raphael Robert.