Renowned public servant Dr. Shirley Malcom joins Kayla and Sally to discuss the challenges facing graduate students and postdocs during traineeship. We discuss structural barriers keeping trainees in underpaid roles and keeping out those who cannot afford to stay in such roles. Importantly, we consider how universities and funding agencies can perpetuate (or can act to stop!) toxic training environments. How can students and postdocs thrive in a system that's not designed for them? There are no easy answers, but it makes for an important, fascinating conversation!Dr Malcom is a pioneer in advancing STEMM equity, with four decades of experience working on science and technology equity initiatives, including as an advisor to the National Science Foundation and to President Clinton. In her current role as leader of the SEA Change initiative at AAAS, her team is seeking to "effect sustainable change with regard to diversity, equity, and inclusion in STEMM at U.S. institutions of higher education." SEA Change initiative: link https://seachange.aaas.org/Dr. Malcom's recent op ed in Science: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adh0336