In this conversation, the hosts discuss patchless patching, vulnerabilities in the Windows TCP/IP stack, and the trustworthiness of Microsoft. They highlight the challenges of marketing in the cybersecurity industry and the importance of building trust with customers. The conversation also touches on the need for vendors to prioritize security and code quality over rushing products to market. Overall, the hosts express concerns about the frequency of security vulnerabilities and the potential impact on customer trust. Other topics of discussion include the Innovators and Investors Summit at Black Hat, the potential sale of Trend Micro, layoffs in the industry, and the controversy surrounding room searches at DEF CON. They also touch on the concept of time on the moon and its implications for future lunar missions. Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/esw-372