In this episode, we're joined by Kate Bowler, PhD. as we continue our chapter-by-chapter exploration of Falling Upward with Chapter 4: "The Tragic Sense of Life." Kate, along with Richard and CAC staff delve into the flaws of the prosperity gospel as well as the importance of finding meaning in suffering. We explore the ways in which love and suffering intertwine, urging honesty during life's hardships, and celebrate the power of community, especially its irreplaceable gift of "unchosen" love. Before we dive in to the interview, staff from the CAC catch up with Richard at his hermitage to hear his reflections on the fourth chapter a decade after he originally wrote it. Kate Bowler, PhD is a four-time New York Times bestselling author, award-winning podcast host, and an Associate Professor of American Religious History at Duke University. She studies the cultural stories we tell ourselves about success, suffering, and whether (or not) we’re capable of change. She is the author of Blessed: A History of the American Prosperity Gospel and The Preacher’s Wife: The Precarious Power of Evangelical Women Celebrities. After being unexpectedly diagnosed with Stage IV cancer at age 35, she penned the New York Times bestselling memoir, Everything Happens for a Reason (and Other Lies I’ve Loved) and No Cure For Being Human (and Other Truths I Need to Hear). She lives in Durham, North Carolina with her family and continues to teach do-gooders at Duke Divinity School. Resources: A PDF of the transcript for this episode is available here. Grab a copy of the newly revised version of Falling Upward, with a new foreword by Brené Brown here. To learn more about Kate Bowler and her work, visit her website here.