They say you should never meet your heroes, but this conversation with Ursula Goodenough proves definitively that it isn't always true! Bart first read Ursula's book, The Sacred Depths of Nature, almost immediately after deconverting from Christianity many years ago. It was a massive influence on his thinking, providing a scientific basis for a rational devotion to life, and forming the narrative around which he based his version of secular humanism. A new edition of the book has just been released, so it's a perfect time for a conversation with its author! Ursula is a Professor of Biology Emerita at Washington University in St. Louis who was recently elected to the National Academy of Sciences. Links to Ursula's work: ⁠sacreddepthsofnature.com⁠ ⁠religious-naturalist-association.org