In their first joint interview, the director of the UK spy agency GCHQ and the top general in charge of cyber operations for the military talk about how the UK is using the power of cyber to push back against adversaries with the creation of a whole new National Cyber Force. Jeremy Fleming and General Sir Patrick Sanders also reveal new details about how the UK used offensive cyber in the fight against Islamic State, attacking the terrorist group’s ability to fly drones, use their mobile phones and spread online propaganda. We also hear from a woman who was once described as the UK’s best offensive cyber spy. Sally Walker has since left GCHQ and says she is choosing to speak out – now she’s once again a member of the public – to help generate a wider debate about the cyber grey zone. Interviews: Jeremy Fleming, director of GCHQ General Sir Patrick Sanders, commander of Strategic Command Sally Walker, cyber expert Tobias Elwood, Conservative MP, chair of the defence select committee and former foreign officer and defence minister Credits: Written and narrated by Deborah Haynes Edited and produced by Chris Scott Production support from Michael Greenfield The head of Sky News Radio is Dave Terris