Why are so many of our kitchens so unsociable? Lucy meets Johnny Grey, a kitchen designer who’s been fighting for decades to make kitchens a place for leisure not work, and Katie Pennick, a disability campaigner whose work has changed the face of London transport – but who still can’t cook in her own kitchen. Plus Sean Warmington-Wan reflects on the unsociable kitchen in his shared London house. Lecker is written and produced by Lucy Dearlove. Thanks to the contributors on this episode: Sean Warmington-Wan, Katie Pennick and Johnny Grey. You can find a full transcript for this episode on the Lecker website. Buy the Kitchens print zine featuring original essays and illustrations! Original music was composed for the series by Jeremy Warmsley, with additional music also by Jeremy, and by Blue Dot Sessions Research and production assistance from Nadia Mehdi. Cover collage by Stephanie Hartman If you’ve enjoyed what you heard on this episode, or generally on Lecker,  please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening, and telling a friend about it! And if you’ve really enjoyed listening to this episode, or are a big fan of the podcast in general already, please consider becoming a patron of the podcast at patreon.com/leckerpodcast