We interview Dr Robert Shumaker, the President and CEO of the Indianapolis Zoo. Rob is a renowned expert on primate cognition (i.e. primate behaviour and intelligence), a widely published scientist, and a leader in the zoo world. He talks to us about his fascinating research on Great Ape cognition and the very fine line between the abilities of humans and other apes. Rob discusses the future of zoos in the US and the rapidly expanding conservation efforts of the Indianapolis Zoo, and tells enthralling tales of orangutans outwitting both him and their keepers. Notes: You can learn more about the Indianapolis Prize here and the Emerging Conservationist Awards here. The work of the Global Centre for Species Survival, a partnership between the Indianapolis Zoo and the IUCN Species Survival Commission can be seen here. Cover art: Orangutan by Ian Nicholls. For more information visit www.mammalwatching.com/podcast Dr Charles Foley is a mammalwatcher and biologist who, together with his wife Lara, spent 30 years studying elephants in Tanzania. They now run the Tanzania Conservation Research Program at the Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago. Jon Hall set up mammalwatching.com in 2005. Genetically Welsh, spiritually Australian, currently in New York City. He has looked for mammals in over 100 countries.