Dr Gavin Ashenden is joined for this episode of Merely Catholic, the podcast series for the Catholic Herald, by Alexander Tschugguel, who in 2019 achieved global fame when he took an icon of a pachamama earth goddess from the Carmelite Church of Santa Maria in Traspontina, near the Vatican, and threw it into the River Tiber. A convert from Lutheranism, Mr Tschugguel explains why it was idolatrous to allow such pagan icons near the altar of a Catholic church, saying it was a direct contravention of the First Commandment and also an insult to the Blessed Virgin Mary. He also reflects on the sinister ideologies that he believes lay behind the decision to invite pagan fertility symbols into a church and what the objectives of such thinking might be.