Donald Hoffman is a cognitive scientist at UC Irvine and author of 'The Case Against Reality.' He believes that the world we experience is an illusion, whilst ultimate reality is composed of networks of conscious agents. Keith and Philip probe Professor Hoffman's view from their very different perspectives on the nature of consciousness. Here's the paper we discuss at length which argues that Donald's argument from evolution is self-defeating: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11229-022-04021-1 Here's Donald's recent co-written paper in which the authors attempt to ground physics in networks of conscious agents: https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/25/1/129