This week on Sea Change Radio we speak to Lisa Song of ProPublica about her recent work spotlighting efforts by the plastics industry to make its fossil fuel-based products seem benign. We examine how plastic recycling falls short in many areas, look at the problems surrounding a relatively new plastic recycling process called pyrolysis, and then discuss her trip to Ottawa, Canada where she attended a UN conference which purported to be plastic-free. Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise. Lisa Song (LS) | 00:28 - The first big lesson is just that pyrolysis is very inefficient. If you start out with a hundred pounds of plastic waste that you feed into the pyrolysis process, by the end, only 15 or 20 pounds of that original trash becomes a new plastic product. Narrator | 00:50 - This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to Lisa Song of ProPublica about her recent work, spotlighting efforts by the plastics industry to make its fossil fuel-based products seem benign. We examine how plastic recycling falls short in many areas, look at the problem surrounding a relatively new plastic recycling process called Pyrolysis, and then discuss her trip to Ottawa, Canada where she attended a UN conference, which purported to be plastic-free. Alex Wise (AW) | 01:37 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Lisa Song. Lisa is a reporter at ProPublica. Lisa, welcome back to Sea Change Radio. Lisa Song (LS) | 01:45 - Thanks for having me. Alex Wise (AW) | 01:47 - Always a pleasure to have you on the show. You've been doing some important work in the plastic space. Recently covered a quote unquote plastic free conference up in Ottawa, Canada. And then you've written a really well researched piece called Selling a Mirage about the problems with plastic recycling. Why don't we first start with that, this new pyrolysis technology, which ExxonMobil has called the circularity of plastic. I like that. Why is plastic not as circular as ExxonMobil might want it to seem? Lisa Song (LS) | 02:24 - Yeah, so the story I wrote was about a particular form of chemical recycling and chemical recycling, or what the industry likes to call advanced recycling is this whole collection of ways to recycle hard to recycle plastic. And the most popular form of chemical recycling is called pyrolysis. And so that's what my story was about. Pyrolysis basically means you take a bunch of plastic trash and you heat it up at very high temperatures until you break all of the chemical bonds and you end up with the molecular building blocks of plastic, and then you use those to make new plastic. So the plastics industry has been marketing pyrolysis and chemical recycling for a while now, and they're really touting it as this kind of miracle cure because with pyrolysis, you can recycle things like plastic bags and a lot of food packaging and, and think of the sort of flimsy plastic that we use every day in, in packaging or, um, to, uh, as containers for, um, crackers and chips and cookies that you buy from the grocery store. Those kinds of things. You can't really recycle in your regular blue recycling bin. And pyrolysis is supposed to be the solution to that.  Alex Wise (AW) | 03:47 - And it's kind of the holy grail for plastic recyclers. I can imagine. Where you wouldn't want to be as beholden to dividing up all the plastics is that one of the advantages is that on paper you would be able to take a milk jug or a plastic detergent container and then some plastic wrap, and then throw it all into a big bin and melt it down, and then voila, you've got a whole new substrate to work with. Is that the basic concept?  LS | 04:18 - Yeah. So one of the ways that it's been marketed is that pyrolysis can take a bunch of the messy, dirty mixed plastic waste that you can't recycle normally, and it will turn it all into brand new pristine plastic that's so clean. You could use it as food packaging. Um,