Recorded on September 11, 2017 Jack Goldsmith, working group co-chair, interviewed authors Oona Hathaway and Scott Shapiro, examining the role that war has played in international relations from the sixteenth century to the present -- a role profoundly transformed by the "Internationalists," who created the rules and institutions that gave us seven decades of unprecedented peace between states. Hathaway and Shapiro argue that as the world stands on the brink of rejecting the global legal order the Internationalists built, this is a moment to understand what is at risk.