An audio essay on human nature, followed by an interview with primatologist Dr. Susan Cheyne. Susan is the co-director of the Borneo Nature Foundation International and the Borneo River Initiative for Nature Conservation and Communities, she is the Vice Chair of the IUCN Section on Small Apes, and she is also a Senior Lecturer at Oxford Brookes; she has been studying gibbons for about 27 years. Our conversation is wide-ranging, but centers on gibbons. We discuss gibbon locomotion, life among gibbons, the nature and function of gibbon song, gibbon violence, monogamy, and infanticide (and lack thereof), and other subjects. Enjoy. Dr. Cheyne's research: http://www.susancheyne.com  IUCN Section on Small Apes: https://gibbons.asia/   Timestamps:  0:00 Are humans naturally monogamous? 17:27 Introducing today's subject and guest 20:25 Gibbon overview (interview starts) 31:57 Why do humans have twins? 34:02 A day in the life of a gibbon 38:57 Studying gibbons 40:37 Forgotten apes 44:06 Monogamy 1:09:27 Violence 1:11:34 Singing 1:17:49 Intelligence 1:23:28 Conservation   Sources relevant to the introduction:  Stewart-Williams & Thomas | "The Ape That Thought It Was a Peacock" | 2013 Fisher | "The Anatomy of Love" | 2016 Ryan & Jethá | "Sex at Dawn" | 2010 Kramer | Pew Research | 2020 Marlowe | Behavioural Processes | 2000 Chapais | Evolutionary Anthropology | 2013 Schacht & Kramer | Sec Behavioral and Evolutionary Ecology | 2019 Shankman | "The Mead–Freeman Controversy Continues" | 2018 (I'm not sure if this view is correct; once again, you can find academics on both sides of this.)