Over the last century, economic growth, as measured by increases in countries' Gross Domestic Product, has been the key indicator of success. And while GDP has skyrocketed in many countries, so has fossil fuel use, deforestation, and the destruction of natural ecosystems. On top of that, inequality has actually gotten worse in many countries and incomes, adjusted for inflation, have stagnated for many parts of these "growing" economies. It seems this relentless focus on growth has not created the kind of world that most people want to live in. Professor Giorgos Kallis is an ecological economist, political ecologist, and Catalan Institution for Research and Advanced Studies Professor at the Institute of Environmental Science and Technology in Barcelona. He's also the author of several books about degrowth economics - the field of economics that questions the insatiable need for growth and seeks an alternative societal structure that supports everyone, regardless of a country's ability to grow GDP. Professor Kallis joins the show to talk about degrowth economics and why it is critical to achieve the degrowth goals if we want to reduce the negative impacts of the climate crisis. We also discuss the role that 18th century philosopher and theologian Thomas Malthus had on modern economics, why he was so wrong about inequality and limits, and some of the ideas that get attributed to him that weren't actually his. Check out these two books by Professor Kallis: "The Case for Degrowth" "Limits: Why Malthus Was Wrong and Why Environmentalists Should Care" As always, follow us @climatepod on Twitter and email us at [email protected]. Our music is "Gotta Get Up" by The Passion Hifi, check out his music at thepassionhifi.com. Rate, review and subscribe to this podcast on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, and more! Subscribe to our YouTube channel! Join our Facebook group.