This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Bill Wasik is the editorial director of The New York Times Magazine. Monica Murphy is a veterinarian and a writer. Their first book, Rabid: A Cultural History of the World’s Most Diabolical Virus, was a bestseller, and they’re back with a new one: Our Kindred Creatures: How Americans Came to Feel the Way They Do About Animals. For two clips of our convo — on the beginnings of dog welfare, and the “Uncle Tom’s Cabin” for animal activism — pop over to our YouTube page. Other topics: writing a book as a married couple; the mass extinctions of early America; bison at the brink; how horses increased after the Industrial Revolution and drove the early movement for animal welfare; “the best humanitarian ideas came from England”; bullfighting in Spain; the profound role and colorful character of Henry Bergh; his founding of the ASPCA; the absence of vegetarianism among early activists; PT Barnum’s sympathy and exploitation; transporting Beluga whales by train; the public clashes between Barnum and Bergh; journalism’s role in animal welfare; George Angell’s magazine Our Dumb Animals; the anti-slavery Atlantic Monthly; animal activism growing out of abolitionism; Darwin; Romanticism; George Bird Grinnell and first Audubon Society; fashion and consumerism; wearing hats with whole birds; the emotional lives of dogs; the activism around strays; the brutality of early shelters; rabies and dog catchers; Louis Pasteur and the rabies vaccine; Anna Sewell’s Black Beauty; how she was robbed of royalties; the treatment of horses in Central Park; reform movements driven by elites; class resentment; Animal Farm and Watership Down; the cruelty of today’s food industry; pig crates; Pope Francis; and Matthew Scully’s Dominion. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Walter Kirn on his political evolution, Musa al-Gharbi on wokeness, Sam Harris for our quadrennial chat before Election Day, and Damon Linker on the election results. Wait, there’s more: Peggy Noonan on America, Anderson Cooper on grief, Christine Rosen on humanness in a digital world, Mary Matalin on anything but politics, and John Gray on, well, everything. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].