My guest today is Raf De Keninck, executive member, director of education, research, and organisation of the Design Academy Eindhoven - one of the world's leading design schools. And Raf is also a performing musician, clarinet player and conductor. He played, for example, at the beginning of the 2000s, 300 concerts a year.  We start with sharing the incredible dreams he had as a child and a unique ritual he did in his adolescent years. And we get some insights into his leadership skills, for example, the advantages of having an outside view, combined with excellent listening skills and the practice of 'not knowing' and how to let inspiration flow in two ways. So, when you are open, then people will also be open. We talk about leading and following, and Raf explains what it means as a conductor to have a total overview and a well-defined score and how you can lead without explicitly leading. And there is another story of a conductor shouting at an orchestra and how the musicians were teaching him a lesson.  “Every time you play, rehearse or perform, you learn something.”   Show notes and how to connect with Raf LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rafdekeninck/  Design Academy Eindhoven website: https://www.designacademy.nl/  Personal website: https://www.rafdekeninck.nl/  Mahler 8th Symphony (Director: Georg Solti) on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/51GmsdrdDSuwM9gTTS23Xg?si=Uyq4tbLhRGWvHAzoWZknLg  Ligeti Chamber Concerto (Raf is talking about the most inspiring piece for organisations and leading and following): https://open.spotify.com/album/46e15cKAuwDSwyIrTDeDk4?si=YJdzj6ZiRtua0_gfvV-H0g  John Cage 4’33’ recording from the first Design Thinkers Conference: https://creativecompanion.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/i-invite-you-to-listen-music-thinking-in-service-design/    Do you like books? Check out the new book: The Power of Music Thinking and get stories, explanations and exercises to apply music thinking. Buy The Power of Music Thinking   More like this Please subscribe to the podcast and listen to the latest episode of The Power of Music Thinking. The Power of Music Thinking is brought to you by CREATIVE COMPANION specialised in facilitating leaders, teams and organisations in customer experience, change and innovation. Check out their website