This week, Byrne Hobart is joined by Patrick McKenzie (patio11), host of the podcast Complex Systems, to discuss the complexity and endless fascination of financial infrastructures, the role of fraud in finance, talent spotting strategies and the importance of building networks. 🔥Apply to join over 400 founders and execs in the Turpentine Network: https://hmplogxqz0y.typeform.com/to/JCkphVqj --- SPONSORS: BABBEL: 🌐 Ready to achieve your 2024 goals? Start learning a new language with Babbel in just three weeks. Enjoy app lessons, live classes, and podcasts designed for real-world conversations. Get up to 60% off at https://babbel.com/torenberg BEEHIIV: Head to beehiiv, the newsletter platform built for growth, to power your own. Connect with premium brands, scale your audience, and deliver a beautiful UX that stands out in an inbox. 🐝 Head to https://beehiiv.com and use code "MOZ" for 20% off your first three months --- RECOMMENDED PODCASTS: 🎙️1 to 100 | Hypergrowth Companies Worth Joining Every week we sit down with the founder of a hyper-growth company you should consider joining. Our goal is to give you the inside story behind breakout, early stage companies potentially worth betting your career on. This season, discover how the founders of Modal Labs, Clay, Mercor, and more built their products, cultures, and companies. Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/70NOWtWDY995C8qDqojxGw Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1762756034 - 📈 ECON 102 W/ NOAH SMITH - Keeping econ entertaining - Noahpinion author Noah Smith and Erik Torenberg break down business news and politics every week. Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Mos4VE3figVXleHDqfXOH Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/id1753399812https://podcasts.apple.com/id1753399812 --- LINKS: Byrne’s writing: https://thediff.co Patrick's Newsletter: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/ --- X / TWITTER: https://x.com/patio11 (Patrick) https://twitter.com/ByrneHobart (Byrne) https://twitter.com/TurpentineMedia (Turpentine) --- TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (00:20) Historical origins of financial products (01:22) Old infrastructure in finance (05:02) Security vs Usability trade-off (10:49) Trust dynamics in finance (11:58) High-trust vs Low-trust environments (15:26) Market dynamics and reputation systems (19:41) Sponsors: Babbel | Beehiiv (22:15) Who's your favorite fraudster? (25:10) Crypto and money laundering (30:31) FTX and money laundering theory (36:59) Collapse of FTX (40:55) Normative Aspects of Trust (46:27) The Starfighter Project (53:33) Value of networking and cold emails (58:00) Managing information flow (01:02:31) Outro