The conversation revolves around the challenges faced by testers and the lack of understanding and support they receive from leadership. The hosts discuss the misconception of the value of testers and the need for leaders to create an environment where testers can thrive. They highlight the importance of addressing the frustrations and unhappiness of testers and the need for leaders to take responsibility for creating a supportive and nurturing culture. The conversation also touches on the changing expectations of developers compared to testers and the need for leaders to have a better understanding of the role and value of testers. The conversation explores the disconnect between the expectations and perspectives of testing and quality engineers. It highlights the need for leaders to take responsibility for creating a supportive environment and culture. The role of tools and marketing in shaping these expectations is also discussed. The conversation concludes with the importance of clear communication, understanding the needs of the team, and nurturing the growth of testers and quality engineers. #podcast #softwaretesting #software #softwaredevelopment  Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod: 11:38 - Challenge Networks. Listen to Adam Grant explain the concept of a Challenge Network on the DOAC podcast.26:30 - Jerry Weinberg's 2nd Law of Consulting from his book The Secrets of Consulting"No matter how it looks at first, it's always a people problem."Find more of Jerry's quotes on this page28:40 - Vern talking about his talk in episode 6 "How No-Code Test Tools, Technical Leadership & Glue Work Impact Software Quality"Tanya's Glue Work presentation which you can read or watch"What Is Quiet Quitting?" a BBC News article describing the phenomenonVernon's Agile Yorkshire presentation where he describes the link between those concepts29:19 - Martin HynieMartin describing the wider impact of his talkMartin's LinkedIn30:59 - Maaret Pyhäjärvi & Anna BaikAnna's quote that Maaret shared on LinkedInAnna's LinkedInMaaret's LinkedIn34:35 - Prompt EngineerWhat's a Prompt Engineer?35:30 - Adelina ChalmersAdelina's AMA session that I joined (please follow her and join her sessions, she's AWESOME!)Adelina's LinkedIn00:00 Introduction and Technical Discussion01:27 - What's going on with Rich's fingers?!01:36 Challenges and Misunderstandings Faced by Testers and Quality Engineers01:54 - Everything the Testers in your team want to tell you but are too afraid02:50 - Vern's theory07:40 - Why do other roles get "the nutrients" they need?08:09 The Value of Testers and the Need for Supportive Leadership10:26 - What do leaders misunderstand about the value of Testers and QEs?11:38 - Support networks Vs Challenger networks12:09 - The bugs we report that people REALLY don't like!12:43 - System problems disguised as testing problems14:37 Shifting Expectations for Developers and the Evolving Understanding of Testing14:53 - Groundhog day!16:10 - Rich wonders if our expectations are reasonable19:29 - How does the world perceive Developers, Designers, and Testers?21:04 - How expectations have changed for Developers23:07 Creating a Supportive and Nurturing Environment for Testers24:08 - How a lack of curiosity impacts the wellbeing of your team26:21 - Expectation vs Reality26:59 Bridging the Gap: Expectations and Perspectives27:27 - How to collaborate on expectations with the Tester in your life!28:37 - Martin's crazy experiments, Glue Work, Technical Leadership, and Quality Engineering30:13 - What does this tell us about the culture of the organisation?30:58 Creating a Supportive Environment for Testers and Quality Engineers31:52 - Rich asks if this is only a problem for people like us?32:41 The Role of Tooling in Shaping Expectations35:30 - What can we learn from the CEO/CTO relationship?38:12 - What can we learn from relationships, period?40:19 - ⚽️ Footy42:16 - The impact of language and narrative on testing in the test tool market45:50 - Th