In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview,  Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe University Law School, reflects on what it was like being on the outside looking in at Robodebt. *This  was recorded before the release of the Government's response to the Royal Commission.* Some references from the interview include: Frank Kafka Before the LawPamela Herd and Donald Moynihan Administrative Burden: Policymaking by other means (2019)Homi Bhabha The Other Question: Stereotype, discrimination and the discourse of colonialism (2001)Evidence from Michael Kerr-Brown re ATO being well positioned to push back against the DHS request, transcript from 12 December 2022 p. 1615Nick Gill, Nothing Personal? Geographies of Governing and Activism in the British Asylum System (2015)Darren O'Donovan  Victims now know they were right about robodebt all along at The ConversationGrabs included are: Angus Scott KC, Louise Macleod (Ombudsman) and Commissioner Holmes, 8 MarchJason McNamara (DHS) and Angus Scott KC, 5 December 2022Commissioner Holmes and Michael Kerr-Brown (ATO), 12 December 2022Tim Ffrench (DHS), 22 February 2022 Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... Those of us in the employ of the State Government speak in a strictly personal capacity, consistent with the Public Sector Code of Ethics that permits public servants to promote an outcome in relation to an issue of public interest - in this case, the betterment of the public service. Nothing we say should be taken as representing the views of the Government or our employers. While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right. If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself. The first eight episodes were recorded before the Royal Commission launched its report and so don’t benefit from the great wisdom of Commissioner Holmes. Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected]. Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!