Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade, featuring an interview with the editorial and commercial leaders of The Australian recorded to mark its 60th birthday. Producing independent analysis of the media and marketing industry that goes beyond press releases takes time and resources. If you like what we do, you can support us by becoming a paying member. Become a member today The Australian’s Gunn and Gray: Is radio the next frontier?; platform friends and foes; and AI optimism If Meta stops sharing news on its platforms to beat the News Media Bargaining Code, it should be forced to leave Australia altogether, the executive leading News Corp’s relationships with digital platforms argues. The comments from Nicholas Gray come during a podcast conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes. As part of the News Corp restructure, Gray has been given the expanded, dual role of MD and publisher of The Australian and the company’s stable of prestige publishing arm, along with MD of tech platform partnerships. It comes as the industry waits on treasury minister Stephen Jones’ decision whether to designate Meta under the News Media Bargaining Code rules. In 2021, Google (owned by Alphabet) and Facebook (owned by Meta), fended off designation by voluntarily striking deals with local publishers. In March. Meta said it would not renew its deals. If designation of Meta occurs, the company would be forced to go into binding arbitration with local companies that appear on the Australian Communications and Media Authority’s register of eligible news businesses over how much it must pay each of them to feature their content. Facebook has indicated that it would prevent news links being shared, which would enable it to argue in arbitration that it would not need to pay the publishers. During the conversation Gray argues: “We hope the Assistant Treasurer designates. Obviously then, Meta have a decision. “They've threatened to turn off news as they have in Canada. “If they're designated and if they try to turn off news, we say that won't be enough. We prefer they didn't exit the market entirely, but if they're not prepared to pay for the news that's unquestionably an important part of their service, all of the research says that, and our data says that, then we don't think it's sustainable for them to operate in this market. The call that Meta should be prevented from operating in Australia altogether was first hinted at by News Corp’s boss, executive chairman Michael Miller in his speech to the Australian Press Club last month. He called for the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, which created the bargaining code, to have “the power to ultimately block access to our country and our people if they refuse to play by our rules.” The interview with Gray and The Australian’s editor-in-chief Michelle Gunn was timed for the 60th anniversary of The Australian, which celebrated the landmark over the weekend. During the conversation, Gunn is asked about previous reports The Australian is contemplating launching its own radio station, similar to The Times Radio in the UK. Gunn acknowledges that “live audio” is on the table. She says: “We are looking at our success in podcasting. I think it's an important tool for us to grow audience. “Whether it takes the form of live audio or podcasts, and we're still looking at what the mix will be, and what form it will take.” On the same radio question, Gray adds: “We need to be in new places with our brand and our news reporting in the forms that people want to consume it, however they may, in order to develop them as potential subscribers down the track.” News Corp’s global chair Lachlan Murdoch already owns radio stations in Australia through Nova Entertainment. The wide ranging conversation also covers the tough publishing environment; The Australian’s increasing use of vertical video, lessons learned from failed youth brand The Oz, how AI will change journalism