We need to talk about refugees and migration law. In discussions about these topics, refugeesand migration policy are often being treated as the other of politics and policy. But the waystates treat those seeking refuge and asylum on their territory is fundamentally a rule of lawissue, and actually says a lot about the current state of the rule of law there: Are refugeesable to enter a jurisdiction and apply for their right to asylum? Are due process obligationsbeing observed? Do refugees have access to justice? Does the European migration lawsystem work? This is what LENNART KOKOTT discusses in this week’s episode of We Need to Talk About the Rule of Law with our distinguished guests: MÁRTA PARDAVI is a lawyer and co-chair of the Hungarian Helsinki Committee, a nongovernmental watchdog organization that protects human dignity and the rule of law.PHILIP WORTHINGTON is the Managing Director of European Lawyers in Lesvos, a NGOproviding access to legal counselling in Lesvos.MARIA KALIN is a lawyer with expertise in migration law and member of the migration lawcommittee of the German Bar Association. She teaches at the University of Passau.