A destabilised Europe faces a stark choice, now more urgent since Trump’s victory. Make urgent preparations for a shooting war with Russia on our own territory – or prepare to lose that war, with all the terrifying consequences. That’s the argument of Keir Giles, author of Who Will Defend Europe? and senior consulting fellow of Chatham House’s Russia and Eurasia Programme. He talks to Gavin Esler about the scale of the challenge, the damage done by European governments’ shortsightedness about the Kremlin’s escalating provocations, and why the advent of another Trump Presidency is more than a wake-up call. • “These are decisions that should have been taken years and decades ago. They should not have taken the threat of a Trump to push them to into action.” • “Russia has been at war with us in every domain except open military conflict for over a decade now.” • Twitter refugee? Follow TINAD, Gavin Esler and Keir Giles on BlueSky. • Buy Who Will Defend Europe? through our affiliate bookshop and you’ll help fund TINAD by earning us a small commission for every sale. Bookshop.org’s fees help support independent bookshops too. • Support This Is Not Drill on Patreon to continue by backing us on Patreon. You’ll get early, ad-free editions, merchandise and more. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Audio production by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production podmasters.co.uk Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices