“What I became aware of when I started writing about resistance, and I thought, the healthy body resists infection. We have an immune system. And the healthy psyche resists a culture that's going to infect us psychologically, that's going to keep us from basically being able to function psychologically. And what I realized is that there is, I mean, you see little boys going to school and they come up against it in this school, pre-kindergarten, kindergarten, where to be one of the boys they have to be tough. And then you see girls and adolescents coming into, where to be included, not excluded, to be one of the girls that people want to be with. And that's when you get there. You have to be nice. You have to be seemingly perfect. You know, she's good at everything. She's good at drawing and she's good at sports. And she never, you know, that kind of thing. And so what I'm trying to say is there's a force in the world that you're up against with this kind of stuff. It's not just coming from inside people.” So says Dr. Carol Gilligan, esteemed professor and developmental psychologist, who is the author of a landmark book called In a Different Voice—a book that I talk about and write about all the time. Back in the ‘80s—Gilligan is 87 now and still working—she looked at all the research from the likes of Lawrence Kohlberg and Piaget and made a stunning and obvious realization: These developmental psychologist giants had only ever studied boys. Typically white, middle-class boys. In response, Gilligan did a study on girls and moral development, a groundbreaking look into how culture genders our response to the world: Gilligan found that for girls, morality is relational and rooted in care—not so much law—and that fear of separation from relationship encouraged these girls to stop saying what they know. She struggled to get this study published—it was rejected multiple times—and has since become the most requested reprint out of Harvard. It also became the subject of In a Different Voice, which has sold 500,000 copies—unheard of in academic publishing. Everything that Carol Gilligan shares with us in this conversation is a revelation and also deeply resonant—and something you will know to be true. Before I go, if you missed Niobe Way’s episode from a few weeks ago, tune in to that next—Niobe was Carol’s student, and has done for boys what Carol has done for girls. MORE FROM CAROL GILLIGAN: In a Different Voice In a Human Voice Why Does Patriarchy Persist? Carol Gilligan’s Website Niobe Way’s Episode: “The Critical Need for Deep Connection” FROM MY NEWSLETTER: “What Valley Girl’s Tell Us” “What Are We ‘Really, Actually” Saying “The Achilles Heel of Women”  “How to Keep Caring”  “Why is it So Hard to Scream?” EPISODES IN THE “GROWING UP” SERIES: Niobe Way, “The Critical Need for Deep Connection” Harvey Karp, M.D., ”The Long-Term Implication of Sleep” Carissa Schumacher To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices