In this episode, Paul interviews Garry Clarke-Strange, a specialist in inclusion and diversity. They discuss the current state of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) efforts in organizations and the challenges they face. Garry emphasizes the importance of making DEI a part of an organization's DNA and not just a trend. They also discuss the need to include everyone in the conversation and avoid alienating any group. Garry highlights the commercial benefits of inclusion and the impact it can have on attracting and retaining top talent. They also talk about the role of authenticity and humanizing inclusion strategies. Garry envisions a future where the conversation around inclusion is no longer necessary because it is deeply embedded in organizational culture. Takeaways DEI efforts are facing challenges and a softening of focus, but it is crucial to make it a part of an organization's DNA. Including everyone in the conversation and avoiding alienation is important for sustainable change. Inclusion has commercial benefits and can improve the overall performance of a business. Authenticity and humanizing inclusion strategies are key to engaging people and creating a positive culture. The ultimate goal is to reach a point where the conversation around inclusion is no longer necessary because it is deeply embedded in organizational culture. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 02:47 The Importance of Including Everyone 06:18 The Narrative Around DEI and Alienation 10:30 The Commercial Benefits of Inclusion 12:33 Using Inclusion to Attract and Retain Top Talent 15:16 The Impact of Not Focusing on DEI 21:48 The Future of the Inclusion Conversation