We tend to see the challenge we face in terms of raw numbers and targets that need to be hit. The number of dead from extreme weather. The all-time highs in temperature set in whatever city we're living in. The emission reduction figures we're definitely not on track to hit. And it can be depressing, and demoralizing, to say the least. But there's good news: Focusing on the numbers doesn't change the fact that a shift to a net-zero world is inevitable now, and we're just arguing over the timeline and how much damage we'll do on the way. What if there was a way to make that transition that would also solve so many of the other problems we face? What if there was a way to do it that even the billionaires who tend to oppose typical environmental regulations would sign up for? GUEST: Dr Elizabeth Sawin, Director of the Multisolving Institute; author of Multisolving: Creating Systems Change in a Fractured World