Jamie’s academic profile: https://iash.uq.edu.au/profile/2151/jamie-freestone Jamie and Matthew McGann’s joint website/blog: http://www.mcgannfreestone.com.au/ Jamie’s Areo articles: https://areomagazine.com/author/jamiemiltonfreestone/ References Jamie’s ‘The meaning of science’ blog post (about his upcoming book): http://www.mcgannfreestone.com.au/?p=1984 Jamie’s paper ‘Contemporary Darwinism as a worldview’: https://www.academia.edu/56111417/Contemporary_Darwinism_as_a_worldview Jamie’s paper ‘Narrative: Agents Acting at a Distance’: https://www.academia.edu/44253572/Narrative_Agents_Acting_at_a_Distance Jamie’s Areo article ‘Climate Change: A Very Simple Story’: https://areomagazine.com/2021/06/24/climate-change-a-very-simple-story/ R. Scott Bakker’s article ‘What is the Semantic Apocalypse?’: https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/what-is-the-semantic-apocalypse/ Timestamps 3:30 Iona reads an excerpt from a blog post by Jamie about ‘the meaning of science’: how it fundamentally challenges everyone’s view of the world. 7:08 Jamie discusses his approach to science, how it differs from other approaches, and his upcoming book on the meaning of science in/for our lives. How his literature background and interest in science are strongly linked. 10:51 Jamie’s (and others’) outlook versus the ought-is rule and the gatekeeping philosophers. Jamie on now being out and proud about science’s applicability to all aspects of life: is-ought and fact/value as false dichotomies and red herrings. 16:28 The twin dangers of projecting morals onto the world and using science to justify eugenics, for example, and how these differ from Jamie’s approach of using science to inform morality. 20:22 Narrative in fiction and how it is understood by cognitive science and what it tells us about the evolution of cognition: the evolution of narrative and narratives of evolution. Jamie’s ‘grand theory’ of what narrative actually is and where the previous study of this has gone wrong. The importance of coherence in narrative and our use of ‘mental time travel’ when following narratives. 29:08 Theory of mind and mental time travel together give us our ability to comprehend narrative and explain the two key ingredients of a satisfying narrative (coherence and agent- led actions). 30:04 Foreshadowing and the accretion of meaning: earlier parts of a narrative illuminate later parts and, crucially, vice versa. The nature of skilfully constructed narratives: re-readability, a different story on each reading. 35:30 The difference between whodunnits (and other ‘popular’ genres) and ‘great literature’. 41:03 Jamie’s views on how narrative evolved. Jamie’s speculative views on the evolution of consciousness as being late-arriving: theory of mind is primitive and more widespread among species, whereas full consciousness with mental time travel is unique or rare. And: extrapolation in narrative. 50:48 The failure of scientists to create a compelling narrative on climate change (and Exxon Mobil’s and other ‘bad guys’’ spectacular successes in the opposite direction). Why we need to change this and how. 57:12 A digressive discussion of individual vs. national/corporate responsibilities to combat climate change. Plus: techno/Deutschian-optimism and resurrecting extinct species. 1:09:08 Jamie argues that even seemingly-abstract ideas like the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics have huge impacts on our lives and our ideas of meaning and purpose and morality. Could all fiction that doesn’t contravene the laws of physics be literally true somewhere in the multiverse? 1:19:48 Jamie on being at bottom a literary theorist and his advice on what and how to read. His ‘reading experiments’ and most controversial literary opinion. Plus: should we read translated works? 1:29:40 Why podcast hosts should always read the work of their guests. 1:31