Saul Permutter won the Nobel Prize for his eventual role in the discovery of dark energy. In 1996 when I was lecturing at LBL he bet me that he would show dark energy didn't exist. His group had been measuring supernova distances for years, in hopes of determining the deceleration rate of the universe. Instead, after recalibrating some of his earlier data, his group and an independent group discovered the universe was actually accelerating. That is the beauty of science, it supersedes any individual prejudices, and scientists actually change their minds if the data requires it. This is one of the many important characteristics of science that Saul and his collaborators discuss in their recent book, Third Millennium Thinking. It is a good read, full of useful examples about how scientific thinking is important in the world beyond just science. Saul and I had a lively conversation about science, the scientific method, and his own experiences as a scientists. It was an enriching and enlightening discussion, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. As always, an ad-free video version of this podcast is also available to paid Critical Mass subscribers. Your subscriptions support the non-profit Origins Project Foundation, which produces the podcast. The audio version is available free on the Critical Mass site and on all podcast sites, and the video version will also be available on the Origins Project YouTube. Get full access to Critical Mass at lawrencekrauss.substack.com/subscribe