Heather Mac Donald is never one to back down from controversy, and that’s exactly what makes our discussions so engaging. She’s sharp, opinionated, and unflinching when it comes to tackling issues many prefer to avoid—whether it’s race, culture, or the idea of meritocracy in modern society. This is the third conversation Heather and I have had for the show. With the release of her new book, When Race Trumps Merit, it felt like the perfect time to bring her back to explore how the focus on race and identity politics is reshaping standards across academia, the arts, and medicine. Of course, Heather and I don’t always see eye to eye. Throughout this episode, you’ll hear us wrestle with some points from very different perspectives. But that’s what makes these conversations so worthwhile. Origins isn’t just about interviews; it’s about true dialogue—exchanges where ideas are challenged, examined, and questioned from all angles. In our discussion, we span a wide range of topics, from Heather’s background in classical literature to the current culture wars affecting our institutions. And while our differences come through, it’s these disagreements that add depth and substance to the conversation. Especially now, when polarization is at an all-time high, having open, respectful dialogues is more important than ever. Whether you find yourself agreeing with Heather or not, I hope this discussion will inspire you to think more critically, challenge assumptions, and look more deeply at the issues shaping our culture today. As always, an ad-free video version of this podcast is also available to paid Critical Mass subscribers. Your subscriptions support the non-profit Origins Project Foundation, which produces the podcast. The audio version is available free on the Critical Mass site and on all podcast sites, and the video version will also be available on the Origins Project YouTube. Get full access to Critical Mass at lawrencekrauss.substack.com/subscribe