This conversation with Zack Geist addresses the phenomenon of debt, both from a theoretical standpoint and in very practical terms (at least for US listeners). Zack operates a business that liberates people from student loans and other debt. We discuss the morality of debt, debt peonage, and the crushing realities of debt in America. This is a conversation between a philosopher (me) and someone who works with real people deep inside the system. To learn more about Zack Geist's work, please visit https://learn.studentloantutor.com/magic/