Writer and editor at National Geographic Natasha Daly, whose investigative reporting focuses on animal welfare, conservation, and the exploitation of animals, joins the podcast. In this episode, Natasha and Jared discuss in-depth Natasha's 2019 cover story for National Geographic: Suffering unseen: The dark truth behind wildlife tourism, which was one of the most widely read pieces of the year for Nat Geo. We discuss dark side of the captive wildlife tourism industry and how "selfie culture" and social media are implicated, the ethics of humans' treatment of nonhuman animals, including the difference between unconscious experience or capacity to suffer and intelligence, ways that travel-goers can have an ethical experience observing wildlife abroad, whether economic need provides a moral justification for exploiting animals, and other related topics. You can follow Natasha on her Twitter or Instagram also to read more of her work. Background reading: Equality for Animals? (Peter Singer) Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are? book review (Matthew Cobb, The Guardian) Pics or it didn’t happen’ – the mantra of the Instagram Era (Jacob Silverman, The Guardian) How One Amazon Community Is Trying to Move on from Illegal Wildlife Tourism (Natasha Daly, National Geographic) Chinese citizens push to abolish wildlife trade as coronavirus persists (Natasha Daly, National Geographic)