In this episode Jonathan Chang begins by asking Jason Robertson about an article he wrote for the Journal of Chinese Medicine (https://www.channelpalpation.org/s/Point-Pair-Synergy-and-Defensive-Qi.pdf). In the course of discussing the article, Jon and Jason reflect upon  just a few of the concepts surrounding clinical application of defensive qi (衛氣 wèi qì) theory in East Asian medicine.  While avoiding  assigning  one-to-one equivalency of  'defensive qi' to the  'immune system', cases are described where complex disorders might be viewed through the prism of lung-kidney physiology.