The wave of populism that has swept through the United States and Europe has been a shock to many who did not foresee the impending disruption to doing politics as well. Perhaps it should not have been a surprise. Global financial crises, the Harvard economist Ken Rogoff tell us, run deep. Their effects last a decade and they can have seriously destabilizing social and political consequences. It is reasonable to understand the current wave of populism in the United States and Europe as a consequence of the financial crisis of 2008-2009. After all, these were the areas hardest hit by the Great Recession. Not everyone agrees. Some see a dark underside to current populist movements. They trace its origins to the kind of thinking that Steve Bannon, and to some extent, Marie Le Pen in France, trumpet: white nationalism, a stereotyping of the “foreigner” and the “outsider,” an anger at immigrants who allegedly – although not in fact – receive special benefits. At the extreme, some analysts hear echoes of earlier Fascist movements that came to power in the 1930s. Although the circumstances today are very different from the 1930s, the politics of the “big lie” strike many as crypto-fascist. On this episode, Janice speaks with Ruth Ben Ghiat, an expert on both fascism and populism, as well as a professor of history and Italian studies at New York University. Her latest book is "Italian Fascism’s Empire Cinema".