Devon is the Vice President, Food Initiative, at the Rockefeller Foundation. Devon oversees the Good Food Strategy in the United States, working to advance a more nourishing, regenerative and equitable domestic food system. In this role, she collaborates with stakeholders across the food system to increase consumption of healthy, sustainably produced foods in underserved communities. On this episode of Food Lab Talk, Michiel speaks with Devon about the complexity of systems change, the importance of engaging with a variety of people and perspectives, and why nutrition education isn’t the only tool for shifting diets. Devon Klatell: “I think we get a little lost thinking that we all can go from the same A to B when talking about shifting diets. I think nutrition education is a really important tool in shifting diets and it's not enough. So let's educate them, but let's also make sure that they can afford to buy the foods that you're recommending that they eat. Let's also make sure that those foods are available to them in a place that they can get to in their busy day. That they have the transportation to access. Let's make sure that they're culturally appropriate. Let's make sure that our policy framework supports growing and producing those foods just as much as it supports growing and producing other foods. One of the big mistakes we've made in the past around shifting diets is being overly focused on one solution.” 00:10 Intro to Devon 01:10 From late night food shows to shifting food systems 05:28 Why we need to talk about multiple food systems at different scales 07:35 Unintended consequences of food system complexities 09:19 Making opportunity universal and sustainable 11:12 How the health impacts of the food system carry a $1T price tag 14:32 Why we cannot ignore the scale of the problem 16:44 Shifting the focus of healthcare to nutrition 18:41 Personalizing the path to shift diets 21:13 Systems change as a “yes, and” exercise 22:46 Shifting diets vs shifting lifestyles 25:14 Balancing food as medicine and joy of food 27:59 Using healthcare resources to lower barriers to healthy eating 30:24 Theory of Change: How Rockefeller Foundation is making invisible problems visible 35:13 Why it's important to invite skeptics to your table 37:22 Takeaways for changemakers  Links Rockefeller Foundation Good Food Strategy: USA True Cost of Food Report Rockefeller Food is Medicine Global Energy Alliance for People and Planet Keep in Touch Subscribe, rate, review the show at foodlabtalk.com Follow Food Lab talk on YouTube and LinkedIn *The views expressed by the guests in this podcast don't necessarily represent the host’s views, nor those of his employer.