This is the first conversation with Andrew Baartz in our series on the increasingly controversial doctrine of ‘penal subsititution’. The title of our series is ‘The Cross and Creation; can atonement combine both?’ True to our approach at GC, we want to explore the topic rather than wading into the blow by blow debate. Our guest is Andrew Baartz. Andrew and Tony talk about the big picture – what are the questions for which atonement is the answer? And what are the assumptions behind those questions? The discussion stretches our conceptual landscape to allow for some broader perspectives. True to our theme at GC, we will position this topic within the horizon of the ‘creation gospel’. The conversation will continue next month.