I spoke to Sally Hayden about her book My Fourth Time, We Drowned.  It's about people who tried to cross the Mediterranean Sea from Africa to Europe but ended up locked in detention centres in Libya. The book won the Orwell Prize and was shortlisted for the Baillie Gifford Prize. She describes it as a 'book of evidence'. We talked about:  her early reporting on the story while working for Vicethe role played by business cardsthe importance of making yourself contactable having to respond to sources at all hourshow the story took over her lifestruggling to get the story commissionedhow journalism awards helped change thatwarnings from MI6 that her life was in danger working out what the book would be finding an agent and publisher who believe in what you're doinggiving away her prize money You can buy her book here:  https://uk.bookshop.org/p/books/my-fourth-time-we-drowned-seeking-refuge-on-the-world-s-deadliest-migration-route-sally-hayden/6026367 She recommended Against A Tide of Evil by Mukesh Kapila: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Against-Tide-Evil-Whistleblower-Twenty-First/dp/0991099338 And you can buy my books here: https://uk.bookshop.org/contributors/andrew-hankinson Thanks for listening.