In this episode, Wendy speaks with clinical psychologist and contemplative Amy Cohen Varela. In addition to her work as a psychoanalytic therapist, Amy is also the widow of Francisco Varela (co-founder of the Mind & Life Institute), and continues to share his vision and work through the offerings of Mind & Life Europe. This conversation covers many topics, including: her dual interest in biology and literature; the contemplative aspects of psychoanalysis; skills learned from listening deeply to yourself and to others; how she met Francisco Varela; enaction, meaning, and participatory sense-making; links between Francisco's ideas and Buddhist philosophy; subjective and objective viewpoints, and how we oversimplify Buddhism and science in that dynamic; how more than a decade with Francisco has changed her; the power of curiosity and openness; doing and undoing the self in psychoanalysis; Francisco's reflections on the Chilean civil war, and implications for polarization; the need for systems to be able to "undo" themselves; and Mind & Life Europe's latest offerings. Full show notes and resources