In this episode, Wendy speaks with philosopher and cognitive scientist Hanne De Jaegher. Hanne was influenced by Francisco Varela's ideas from an early age, and has been working to extend enactive theories of mind into social contexts. This conversation covers many topics, including: roots in Varela's work and an early interest in thinking; sense-making and embodiment as foundational to cognition; how our habits and models fit (or don't) with our experience; participatory sense-making and the primacy of interaction; how interpersonal dynamics can have a life of their own; loving and knowing, letting others be; over- vs. underdetermining (how our projections of others shape interactions); emotional capacity and dementia; understanding autistic people from their own side; the need for people in dominant positions to listen; the importance of silence in dialogue; problems with the way social media platforms discourage interaction; interactions within one person; synthesis and breakdown; tension between self and interdependence (creating boundaries); and applying these ideas to our relationship with nature. Full show notes and resources