In this episode, Terry Johnson, an attorney who advises management and board members of both private and public companies, talks about what clients are facing regarding ESG risk identification and management, and how boards are responding to the growing push back against mandated board diversity and stakeholder capitalism.   Thanks for listening! We love our listeners! Drop us a line or give us guest suggestions here. Bio Terry is a corporate and securities partner at the law firm of Arnold & Porter.  She acts as a trusted advisor to the C suite, boards of directors and board members. In her corporate governance work, she advises both public and private company boards and management on board diversity and stakeholder capitalism. Among other areas, her practice often involves counseling management and boards about ESG risk management, including disclosure and liability issues.  She often speaks and writes about corporate governance and in particular, board diversity, including the California board diversity legislation and NASDAQ’s listing rules, and she has authored articles in the Financial Times regarding the effectiveness of quotas in achieving board diversity and the treatment of climate change as a systematic risk to global finance. Terry’s experience also includes representing wineries and winery owners, and family-owned companies in a variety of industries. She has been recognized by the Daily Journal as one of the Top 100 Women Lawyers in California and has been included in Best Lawyers in America since 2014.  In 2022 Terry was selected by the San Francisco Business Times as one of the 13 OUTstanding Voices paving the way for LGBTQ equality in the workplace in its annual Business of Pride awards.  Terry is currently the Treasurer of the Bar Association of San Francisco, in line to assume the presidency in 2024.   Links   Caught in the Culture Wars Crossfire: Board Diversity Initiatives Under Attack   SEC Approves Nasdaq Diversity Proposal   Public shaming will not solve the lack of diversity on corporate boards   Treat Climate Change as a Systemic Risk to Global Finance   Quotes   Board Diversity We are now starting to see a pushback on ESG generally and board diversity in particular as witnessed by the challenges to the California legislation regarding board diversity.  Conservative groups are also bringing claims in the Fifth Circuit in Texas against NASDAQ's board diversity listing rule.   The NASDAQ rule is not mandatory, it's not a quota, it's a comply or disclose and explain why. Essentially, you're not required to put more diverse directors on the board, you just have to tell people why you haven’t, but in today's world, knowing that there would be a strong disincentive to having to explain why you couldn't find a qualified woman for your board or you couldn't find a qualified member of an underrepresented group.   The investment community has been the loudest voice in support of board diversity, but we're certainly starting to hear other voices that are pushing back and saying, "No, we think you ought to be simply deciding board members based on the way we've always done it." Diversity quotas are a “rough justice” approach in that it requires you to put different people on boards - but it does work. The argument against mandated board diversity is that that instead of making a decision about a board member based on pure merit, it’s made on another basis: "We don't want to be required to pick a director who happens to be a woman or director who happens to be part of a member of an underrepresented community, we want to pick the best director whoever that is."   Big Ideas/Thoughts ESG risk management The ESG realm is huge, I mean, just climate change alone under the E part of it, is an enormous topic in itself, and then S and G, the social and governance aspects of it are related, but completely separate sets of issues and concerns to think throug